Regarding long gun & accuracy. Are you confident enough that you could cast 50 bullets on Monday, come back to the same casting setup on Wednesday cast another 50, size/lube/check them as a group and shoot the same accuracy as if they were all cast at the same time? Thanks, Bill.
A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.
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Never tried that, as I almost always cast a full pot, 250 plus in 30 caliber, at a time. That is enough for a weekend national match.
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Can you give me two variables that would that make the bullets you cast on Monday different than Wednesday.
The material and methods that were used on Monday are the same as what you used on Wednesday. The alloy hasn’t changed and the pot is nearly full since you only cast 50 drops on Monday.
A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.
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Since I cast mostly by "feel" I am pretty sure that my grip force will change even from morning to evening or even during a single session once I start to get tired. I do not "time" the cooling of the sprue or the cut, so again, this would be a pretty basic variable. Divots, lumps or flush cut bases are not unknown on my bullets and are part of the inspection after casting.
To me, casting is a relaxing and pleasurable experience and I just take my time and make bullets. I am pretty sure that an automated casting machine could be more consistent, but I have no need for that.
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It would help if I rephrased the question this way.
50 bullets we’re cast on Monday, 50 on Wednesday. All with the same methods. They are sized, lubed and checked and kept separate until you shoot a match on Saturday. Four 5 shot groups are shot in the morning. Two with what you cast on Monday and two were shot with what you cast on Wednesday.
The same with the10 shot groups. One was shot with Monday’s casting, the other shot with Wednesday’s castings.
I did a sloppy job of framing this. What I’m driving at is whether the bullet to bore fit, thus accuracy, will change from casting session to casting session or for that matter throughout the casting session for the beginning caster chasing cast accuracy .
Will the 250 pcs Ric cast on October 1st be as accurate as another 250 he will cast two weeks from now. To level the playing field lets standardize things by saying he only uses Linotype from RotoMetal.
Unless your cadence is mentally fixed I wonder if it can be done without the use of timers/temperature probes.
I left myself a big “out” in that last sentence. I believe Ric, John, Larry and a number of others on the forum have the cadence locked down.
But for some of us I think the mold temperature could creep up or down and change the bullet to bore fit enough to cause accuracy degradation/fliers. Thanks for letting me mumble through this. Bill.
A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.
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I didn't have the patience to cast all the bullets I'd need for something like a nationals so used to break it up into 3 or 4 sessions. I didn't see any difference in results.....buts that's just me. Maybe other people's experiences are different.
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I didn't have the patience to cast all the bullets I'd need for something like a nationals so used to break it up into 3 or 4 sessions. I didn't see any difference in results.....buts that's just me. Maybe other people's experiences are different.
I agree with Pat, once you KNOW how to cast good bullets you don't have to cast them ALL in one setting.
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Linotype is lots easier to bump or form emmediatly after casting. I have read linotype takes about 24 hours to harden. Some homemade #2 alloys can take longer to fully harden...maybe it's the arsenic percentage?
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I'll tell you another thing about Lino, it will wear the throat out especially if you shoot it at high velocity.
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Linotype is lots easier to bump or form emmediatly after casting. I have read linotype takes about 24 hours to harden. Some homemade #2 alloys can take longer to fully harden...maybe it's the arsenic percentage?
It is the higher percentage of antimony.
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keep in mind that testing groups from different days of casting ... doesn't mean much until you shoot about 50 or 100 shots per sample ... even then you are still looking at " probably better or worse " ...
JoeB tells us that small groups are just part of larger groups ... i am 84 per cent confident that is true ...
ken
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I would have no problem with using bullets from two, or three, different days in the same match. I do it all the time because I seldom get to 200 with my single cavity mold before back pain kicks in. I often need more than 200 for a two day match.
I don't believe that if all conditions for the two sessions are the same and the sprues change color on the count of 3 or 4 (aka uniform cadence) there will be a difference in accuracy I have tried and can't tell the difference in weight or any difference dimensions with the mike. I don't believe in things I can't see, feel, measure, or weigh.
I think it would take a lot of groups to prove there is a difference.
For a hundred years it was thought necessary to shoot match bullets i the order they were cast because of imagined difference during the pour. I think almost everybody has given up on that one.
John
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With a Quality mold, same alloy, same setting on pot. I’d never even consider any difference.
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With a Quality mold, same alloy, same setting on pot. I’d never even consider any difference.
The difference is your cadence and mould temperature.
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The difference is your cadence and mould temperature.
But would either one show up on the target? IMO reading the wind and being consistent on the bench will make a heck of a lot more difference in results than a few grains of weight or casting on different days. I'm all for being anal when it comes to casting.......as long as people are being anal about things that matter and not about blindly following the piper with no proof if something does or doesn't make a difference. I have to assume the really good shooters in this BR game don't cast enough bullets in one sitting to last their CBA career. So if casting on different days would make a difference casting in different years should be monumental. BUT they always end up in the top of the ranks.
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But would either one show up on the target? IMO teading the wind and being consistent on the bench will make a heck of a lot more difference in results than a few grains of weight or casting on different days. I'm all for being anal when it comes to casting.......as long as people are being anal about things that matter and not about blindly following the piper with no proof if something does or doesn't make a difference. I have to assume the really good shooters in this BR game don't cast enough bullets in one sitting to last their CBA career. So if casting on different days would make a difference casting in different years should be monumental. BUT they always end up in the top of the ranks.The difference is your cadence and mould temperature.
The inconsistancies would have to be great in the bullet weights mainly. You know that if your bullets weigh different there is different amounts of alloy in the bullet. Hard to explain. If all your bullets fill out the mould cavaty very well, but weigh different then their density is different. That I don't know how much it changes the group at the target. I do know if your bullets weights vary in grains, not tenth of grains, you casting is bad and they aren't going to be the most accurate.
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Using a couple grains difference on say a 180 grain bullet was a worst case scenario and like you said you need to look at the way you're casting if that is the case. But has it been proven that even a weight difference that big has an actual effect or is it just assumed? I tested the BC of a couple of different bullets including a 250 grain tapered slick looking 30 caliber pointed bullet out of a Moss mold at 1700 fps and the BC wasn't that high, not near the BCs Lyman claims for their molds. That's why I believe a little wind will open up a group a heck of a lot more than a little difference in bullet weight yet wind flags don't get talked about much but fluctuating bullet weight eats up pages.
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Bill, the variable I see in you hypothesis might be the hardness of the bullets. If you're casting wheel weights and air cooling them, they take a good 3 weeks to come up to full hardness. There will be a little difference between your Monday bullets and your Wednesday bullets come Sunday. Enough difference to see it on the targets? If you're "pushing the alloy", maybe. If you're casting with linotype and shooting mild loads, you're not stressing the alloy and it's likely not an issue.
Glenn
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Using a couple grains difference on say a 180 grain bullet was a worst case scenario and like you said you need to look at the way you're casting if that is the case. But has it been proven that even a weight difference that big has an actual effect or is it just assumed? I tested the BC of a couple of different bullets including a 250 grain tapered slick looking 30 caliber pointed bullet out of a Moss mold at 1700 fps and the BC wasn't that high, not near the BCs Lyman claims for their molds. That's why I believe a little wind will open up a group a heck of a lot more than a little difference in bullet weight yet wind flags don't get talked about much but fluctuating bullet weight eats up pages.
Yeah wind is a bad influence for sure. I believe the highest BC bullet in Lyman's line up is the 8mm 323417. I think it probably can come close to it's advertised BC. It's a heavy very long pointed bullet. I've shot some spectacular groups with it at 469 yards and well over 2000 fps from a Yugo 98 Mauser. NOE's copy of that bullet shot the same.
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Never tried that, as I almost always cast a full pot, 250 plus in 30 caliber, at a time. That is enough for a weekend national match.
you must have a small pot or cast really heavy 30 calibers 😁
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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I owe everyone a little background on this. I learned about cast bench rest competition in about February 2021. I bought my first rifle dedicated for Production Class Cast BR competition in about July 2021. I sat out the 2021 Nationals because I didn’t have my act together. September 2022 I had a knee replacement. So the 2023 Nationals was to be my first year competing in Cast Bullet BR competition.
Things came together nicely throughout May, June and July of this year. From May through the first week in August I shot 25 groups that agg’d .845. I neck turned another hundred pieces of Lapua brass and worked with Richard over at KC with a plan to preload rather than load at the range. I had a load I had confidence in and the only thing I was working with was the odd flier which I blamed on loose bullet nose to bore fit. But I was close. With the jacketed mentally I had I felt the spec's could produce accuracy well enough to be competitive. About the groups sizes mentioned. It was on my clubs 60 bench range that I've been shooting at for over 30 years and I was shooting in hand picked readable conditions. No buzzers going off, no bench rotations no timers.
As I was getting ready for the match I started to mess around with getting a better fill on the bullet to shake off the fliers. That’s when the wheels came off. From August 21st through September (using the same load I was working with in the spring/early summer) I shot 36 groups that agg’d 1.231 and I was dumbstruck, clueless and mystified. I mean, really, how could accuracy go so south so quickly. It was like a light switch was thrown. Like a scope issue or loose action screws but no that wasn’t it. I put a few groups together but they were random and there were a lot more patterns than groups shot in that time period. It looked like a pressure problem to me. Like it was powder related or too hard a jam between the bullet and the bore. I finally started to look at my casting records and I think I may have figured it out. I’ll try to make this as painlessly short as possible.
What I found was that the small groups I was shooting in the spring, early summer were coming from different casting lots with the alloy running ~680 (no PID) and the mold temperature (spot checked) was running around 370 to 400. If you need the numbers I can probably crunch something together. But the point I want to make is that those bullets were not filled out. They were not as “perfect” as the bullets I started to cast in early August. The spring/early summer casting session were not “perfect” but they fit the bore. As of today I believe I have the target temperatures for alloy and mold figured out where it will give me fully filled out bullets and are consistent in weight with a light frosty appearance. But these “perfect” bullets shoot bigger groups than the “imperfect” bullets because they no longer fit the bore.
A short explanation is needed here. The mold I’m talking about is an Egan style bore rider from Accurate. With the cooler alloy/mold I was dropping a bullet nose close to .3012 in diameter and could not feel the lands. With a hotter alloy of 710 and a hotter mold 430 I’m dropping bullets with a nose close to .3016 and just starting to feel the lands. But as the nose grew larger so did the taper of the Egan design. The taper of the Egan design (from the bullet base to the nose has a .005 taper between .300” to .460” from the bullet base (before check). With the fully filled out “perfect” bullet I was too tight into the freebore and it was shooting patterns off an on. Actually more on that off. I could feel my bullets starting to stick, not into the lands but as the front driving band made contacet with the freebore. In addition the extraction of a loaded round was problematic. The “imperfect” bullet I was casting in the spring may have been inperfect but it was small enough that I could kiss without sticking into the freebore.
Now here’s the funny part. I had a second 31-230E mold from Accurate made earlier this year and I asked Tom to make it with a bit bigger nose so I could feel the lands engage when chambering. With the .3019 nose I can feel it engage the lands. And it can be extracted from both the lands and the freebore because I ordered the bullet base at .309 not the .310 of the first mold. Thus the Egan taper design was small enough fit the freebore.
So at this point I think I can see some daylight. Using bullets from the backup mold the last three groups I shot on Friday were at .700, .545 and .637. I’m starting to think that consistent casting is important but it's trumped by bullet fit to bore. Before I wasn’t tracking groups I shot to the casting lot the bullets came from but I guess thats a good idea. That said I know those groups I shot in spring/early summer came from several casting events. I sure as heck hope this has a happy ending. Bill.
A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.
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Quick follow up regarding the dimensions mentioned about bullet base/ nose, freebore/bore.
This is a production class Savage which means it's over the counter. The freebore is super tight at barely .3084 and the bore is at least .3016. And the bore is filled with chatter marks from the chamber to the muzzle. Bill.
A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.
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I keep reading all these threads about casting match bullets and decided to tell you what I do. Now I am famous for not only being cheap but also lazy. I do not have nor have ever had a lead thermometer or hardness tester. I cast using lino with a bottom pour pot with kitty litter on the molten surface. I set the molds on the rim while the pot (which is set at the highest temp) is heating up and start casting. The first few casts, I have to use a mallet to cut the sprew (these bullets will not weigh correctly) but after up to temp, the sprews are cut with a gloved hand. After the molds start getting hot, I turn the temp knob down a couple marks. By the way, I haven't fluxed for many moons. When casting for a match, I use two DC molds and alternate them, while the last one cast is setting up, I am cutting the sprew by gloved hand and throwing the sprews back into the pot and then filling that mold again. My sessions last no more than an hour as that is about as long as I can hold up. I do not worry about using 2 or 3 sessions to get enough bullets for a Nationals. At the end of the session, I ad lino printing strips to fill the pot back up, the strips are fairly clean but do have some ink on them. If the kitty litter starts getting dirty, I will clean it off the surface and add new litter but be sure not to stir it as even new litter will have moisture in it. By not fluxing, I do get a bullet now and then with an inclusion on the base and that bullet is put back into the pot.
Now all the cavities are marked so I can separate them before weighing the bullets. I do keep them in separate lines in the bullet boxes but years ago I did shoot some groups with the rail gun using intermingled bullets from all the cavities and they all shot into the same good groups. After seating the GC, I also (bump) run them all thru a taper die that is the same as the throat and then run them thru the lubrisizer.
Now are these bullets competitive? I was the only shooter to shoot a 200 at this years Nationals. It works for me.
Dan
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Now I am famous for not only being cheap.
Dan
And that's no idle boast. One time when Dan was loading on a picnic table at a match he dropped a primer in the grass. Held things up for half an hour searching for it! He doesn't know it until now but I spotted it right off, picked up, and dropped it in my pocket. Had it framed and it's on my reloading room wall. Figured if someone was willing to crawl around on their hands and knees for half an hour searching for a primer it must have some real worth. Nice tutorial on how you cast Dan. Hopefully it'll put some peoples worries to rest.
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DanLH ... good stuff .. thanks ...
..i too use kitty litter and don't " flux " or stir ... and even with a dipper ... rarely get inclusions ...
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i might mention that i haven't used my thermometer for 30 years ... i just keep my casting pace so that my sprues " freeze " in 2 to 3 seconds ... seems to cover all my plinking mystery alloys and different molds.
ken
oh, i see they list you as a standard member .. hey, shouldn't we 30 year members get tenure or something ?? ...
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I shot my best score before I knew anything. Casting similar to how Dan is describing, two molds, although I did not use kitty littler and did flux several times each session. Still have not shot a 200.
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I'm listed as a standard member because when I registered I must not have known what I was doing to be listed as a CBA member. Like you mention, I have been some kind of a director since the mid 80s.
To continue my brag, the bullets cast as above described also shot the smallest 200 yard 5 shot group of all classes at this years Nats.
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I agree with Dan and Mark in their observations. In aerospace there is a saying, 'There comes the day when you have to shoot the engineers and begin production."
So it is with cast bullet target shooting. You can only get so far with load development in light winds. If I can get ten shots to touch at one hundred yards in light wind, I feel that is good enough.
Then you need to practice by shooting timed matches with wind flags in strong winds and learn to sense the wind conditions under the time pressure. Whether you hold off for the wind or wait for a certain condition, practice that scenario. Even the lowly .22 Long Rifle at 100 yards is good wind practice and you don't need to cast.
My big lesson this year at the Nationals is the load I've shot for the Pacific Northwest was over pressure (leaking primers) and leading (for six inches ahead of the chamber) in the Kansas City higher temperatures.
Back to the casting bench and the range for more testing and wind judging practice with a lighter load.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Bud,
Interesting that the only time I ever had leading problems was in OR, Tom Gray also had the same problems out there that year. I had fouling problems in NM that I attributed to the low humidity in NM. Never had either problem in the midwest.
Pat, just think how much that primer is worth today, nearly 10 times what it was worth back then.
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Pat, just think how much that primer is worth today, nearly 10 times what it was worth back then.
Don't say anything or I'll end up paying capital gains tax on it.
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Variable management. I would appreciate some expert opinion on the photo below.
Details.
Game: Lever Action Silhouette which I pursue pretty seriously in 30-30
Gun: Marlin 30-30 336CB with ballard rifling
Powder: 4198 and whatever large rifle primers I can find...
Mould: Vintage Lyman Ideal 31141 single cavity.
Pot: Lee 5# with PID set at 550.
Objective: Bullet drops 175g and 25# of lead would make 1,000 bullets. Melt 25# and pour into 1# ingots for a single batch.
Materials: 9# of 10mm cast bullets commercially made. Rest, other commercial bullets and pistol range powder coated scrap. And old non zinc wheel weights.
Method: Dutch oven on propane burner. Melt and skim and skim until a beautiful silver liquid.
Decant: Only have one four ingot Lyman. Decant quickly into ingots, Dutch oven on burner. Fast.
First 4 looked normal. Second 4, got frosty. Third, I dropped them on the concrete and one broke and showed crystalline features. Put it back in the pot. But what was that? Why would an ingot break? It happened again on the final decant. Thin ingot. I have not seen this before.
My objective was to have 25# of all the same lead batch to assist me in reducing variables. My supply of lead is pretty random. I do not have a hardness tester. In talking with my local casting mentor he suggested I cast up some and get some weights. I did and out of 30 bullets, not culled it was 175.5 to 176.4g. Two light bullets at 175.7 and 175.5. Not sure what to make of that and for now, I don't want to distract from the core question.
Question is: Should my crystalline broken visual observation be a concern? I don't know the temp of the Dutch oven. Should I just use the 25# as my quick 30 sample looks good. We thought maybe too much lino, too hard. Or harder than the last batch which was 300 bullets. But, they ranged 174g-175g. Can't locate that worksheet this moment. My question, based on the 30 sample of bullets and data, should I cast as is or consider a remelt of the 25#? .
Thanks for your advice on my effort to create consistent bullets.
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I have not heard the term "decant" used other than to pour off liquid and leave the dregs in the fermenting container. But I think you mean you are dipping and pouring ingots. If you leave the dutch oven on the burner with the heat on, the alloy will continue to gain temperature as you remove mass. This will mean the ingots take longer to become solid. I suspect that what you are seeing is the result of dropping an ingot on a hard surface while it is still slightly soft and not fully hardened due to the haste of your process.
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To answer the second question, when making up casting alloy by batches, you are doing well to just use what you have. If you have several different batches, then take an ingot from each different batch, and either melt in the dutch oven, or if you can, blend the clean ingots in the casting furnace. That will result in a final batch of alloy all the same content.
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Decant or not to decant. I guess I could have just said "poured from Dutch oven to ingot mould". My hope was I can now feed my Lee bottom pour with these 25 ingots and anticipate a more consistent bullet in weight and hardness resulting in greater accuracy or should I say confidence in accuracy.
I did find my data from the last casting session where I was not as confident of the consistency of my ingots. The two boxes on the left was a 300 bullet session which I kept the yellow for lube & GC and put the others back in the pot. I ran the 30 through the same logic just to see how it compared. Small sample size. Spread and STDV is better.
Sounds like I should start casting with my 2023 25# and report back.
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my ladle casting technique is such that i have a 99% confidence that i can come back in a couple of days and achieve the +- 1 tenth grain of consistency of the first day.
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I’m probably in the minority on this one. The concept outlined in the OP is something that never crossed my mind, in casting since 1982.
My pot holds 40-pounds (280.000 grains). If I fill it I can get about (3,500) 80-grain .22 bullets for my .22 BR or about (675) 415-grain .410 bullets for my Model 74 Sharps BPC rifle. My target is to do maybe (1,000) .22 bullets or (500) .41 bullets. So for me, it’s multiple days @ the casting bench and not usually consecutive days. Bullets following casting are not segregated by the casting date. I just set a goal of X bullets for the # matches I’ll be using them in. The nice thing with a large pot is that the alloy is unchanged for the various sessions @ the bench.
All of them are eventually weight sorted and that’s the only act of sorting that I conduct. Bullets are put into 100-round plastic boxes, with the lightest in the first box, progressing to the heaviest bullets in the last box. Throughout the match season I work my way from the first to the last box.
Of much more importance to me is bench technique during the match, trying to maintain consistent grip and resistance for each shot (Remington XP-100) , as well as wind flag watching. The only gain for weighing bullets is to prevent trying to shoot a group where all of the bullets MIGHT be a similar weight except maybe one or two that might be heavier or lighter than the others. This is strictly a confidence thing. Knowing the bullets being shot are close to the same weight, removing at least one possible “excuse”.
Sometimes we can overthink things....
Tom
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Sometimes just stepping back and taking a brake will help you see things more clearly.
IMO bullet fit and hardness is most important. You can't fix what you can't measure.
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Some of the more notable casters only cast at certain barometric conditions but I’m not that annal so any day I can cast from the same batch of lead is good for me. My low scores tell me there are plenty of other variables I need to conquer first.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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Regarding long gun & accuracy. Are you confident enough that you could cast 50 bullets on Monday, come back to the same casting setup on Wednesday cast another 50, size/lube/check them as a group and shoot the same accuracy as if they were all cast at the same time? Thanks, Bill.
Yes.
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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Different degrees of analness….I guess.
For quite a few years I followed the same pattern every fall, making bullets for the next season of shooting. I just finished casting (500) bullets for 2024 for my CSA Model 74 Sharps.
Round up the alloy components, this time 30-pounds pure lead and 1.5-pounds of pure tin. It will produce an alloy of 20:1 or 9-10 bhn. I limit the casting time to (100) bullets, in about 48-minutes. This time of year it’s chilly in my foundry (garage) so feet get chilled and my back appreciates the short casting session. The mold is a single cavity Paul Jones Money design, weighing 414-grains +/-, always shot with black powder. There were (5) casting sessions of (100) bullets each, (5) different days.
I usually use an RCBS ladle, placing the bottom nipple into the sprue plate hole and rotate both together 90 degrees to fill the mold. For smokeless guns I use a 1-pound capacity Rowell ladle. Just for fun I made (10) Jones bullets and compared those to (10) made using the RCBS ladle.
Rowell average weight 414.76-grains 1.1958 Sd
RCBS average weight 415.32-grains 1.079 Sd
Since all (500) bullets are in a common container, there is no way to separate them by casting date. I see no value in that useless exercise. There are way too many other variables to compare besides casting dates, that produce the accuracy results seen on a variety of shooting sessions, conducted over different dates.
Tom
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Aaron
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linoww
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John Carlson
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John Alexander
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Wm Cook
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RicinYakima
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fc60
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Wilderness
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2frogs
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