bullet seater

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  • Last Post 24 October 2022
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Ross Smith posted this 19 October 2022

Will a 30BR bullet seating die work for the slightly longer 308x1.625 cartridge? I'm thinking an LE Wilson? Any advice? I just threw my Frankford arsenal universal bullet seater away-doesn't like CBs.

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delmarskid posted this 19 October 2022

It should. Maybe you could borrow one?

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Ross Smith posted this 20 October 2022

I'm having trouble seating bullets straight using 308 or 30-06 dies. They do adjust down but alaiiagnment  is so-so.

I think I know why J. Ardito used a shelf inside the case neck.

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porthos posted this 20 October 2022

could you shorten a 308 die or better yet shorten a Lee collet seat die

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Ross Smith posted this 20 October 2022

I'm working on all these and have a letter in to LE Wilson.

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John Alexander posted this 20 October 2022

Have you compared your loads with poor alignment with identical loads but with good alignment?   Maybe it's not important.

Some of us think it's a waste of time including Tony Boyer ( for jacketed).  See Bottiger's article in TFS #224 where out of alignment loads shot into 0.5 MOA groups.

A good argument can be made that that a cast bullet well fitted in to the throat/bore corrects misalignment in most loads.

John 

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RicinYakima posted this 21 October 2022

Bottiger's match rifle chamber is very different than what most of us shoot. Minimum chamber and good alignment with throat, chamber and bore.

I wrote an article on the test I did maybe 15 years ago. My position is that if the misalignment is less than the misalignment of the chamber/throat/bore it doesn't make a difference. However, if it is more, it has a marked difference. This was done looking for loading dies that made to straightest cast bullet ammunition. If you don't have a chamber casting and are not gauging ammo, but are just guessing. 

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John Alexander posted this 21 October 2022

That is probably a good rule of thumb to be safe/

I agree that Bottiger's chamber is quite different from what most of us shoot.  Not sure what Ross is loading for but if for a rifle with an Ardito type chamber it is probably a lot like Bottiger's with bullets bumped  in a die that duplicated his chamber.  But even in a factory chamber, with a long bullet like 299 which a lot of people shoot, if the long nose is fitted well into the bore there is lots of guidance to correct misalignment.

Misaligned bullets are more likely to be completely corrected if only a little of the base is in the case. Then misalignment of the loaded cartridge is irrelevant. Also something Ardito taught us.

We don't have to guess about this. The real answer is easy to find for a particular case by shooting misaligned bullets and see if the actually shoot worse than ones with good alignment.  If Tony Boyer doesn't worry about it we should at least be a little skeptical.

John

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John Carlson posted this 21 October 2022

In Boyer's book he explained why he had no use for an alignment tool:  Since his chamber is aligned with the bore and his cases are fitted to the chamber, there is no way the base of a chambered bullet can be any place other than aligned with the bore.  Since the nose of the bullet is touching the lands it also has to be aligned with the bore.  As mentioned above that only works when the chamber, bore, case, and bullet are all fitted together.  Conversely,  if your chamber and bore are not aligned, if your case is loose in the chamber, or if your bullet is not properly fitted to the bore, I don't think starting with a bullet  that is aligned perfectly with the case will help.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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longhunter posted this 21 October 2022

Great Discussion. I always learn so much here.

Thanks,

Jon

Jon Welda CW5 USA Ret.

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45 2.1 posted this 22 October 2022

 or if your bullet is not properly fitted to the bore, I don't think starting with a bullet that is aligned perfectly with the case will help.

 

There are a lot of options there by everybody. The point is what determines what you should do. Try accuracy as the basic determiner. Exactly in what context do you think the above? The case can be misaligned with the chamber, throat or leade and.shoot poorly. What ultimately guides the bullet into the center of the bore? Exactly where do you think (in the launch) does it become irrevalent? My opinion is that it becomes a mote point when the gas check is at the case mouth.

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Ross Smith posted this 22 October 2022

I have 2 J. Ardito 308x1.625 rifles with the long tapered throat and a bump die made by John for the mx30A  eagan bullet. I have the mold also. After I bump the bullets slightly to match the taper, they fit into the throat so far that only the gc is in the case and things are wobbly. My groups are good so maybe I shouldn't worry. My cases are also at max length and still barely hold onto the bullet.

Thanks for all the advice.

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John Alexander posted this 22 October 2022

Ross,

That is no accident. That is exactly how much bullet John liked to have in the case (the minimum]. It reduces resistance to the throat/bore aligning the bullet, as I noted above. I would bet that the crooked rounds you are worried about are near perfect in concentricity once seated in the Ardito throat.

The CBA used to have a rule that the bullet had to be in the case firmly enough that you couldn't shake it out by hand, the "shake test".  John claimed that his loads would pass the shake test.  The rule was taken out, maybe to avoid arguments.

I agree with both John Carlson and 45 2.1.  Note that a long bore riding bullet seated in a case with minimum seating depth in a factory chamber is somewhat similar to Boyer's situation since most of the length of the bullet is being aligned by the bore over a much longer length than the tiny length of a factory throat.  It seem to me that this would make any misalignment of the chamber and throat much less important. Of course this wouldn't apply to other bullets without a long bore riding nose.

However important or unimportant a misaligned chamber/throat is, It is hard for me to see how a perfectly concentrically seated bullet would improve the situation.

Again, we don't have to argue theory, shoot alternate groups some groups with crooked and some with straight rounds and find out. 

John 

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RicinYakima posted this 22 October 2022

Been there and done that. Look up my article "Summer of 30-06 dies" from the 2005 thru the 2007 time period. I fired over 800 rounds in that test. 

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Bud Hyett posted this 23 October 2022

Years ago, the US Army Fort Benning Marksmanship Team would seat a jacketed bullet, turn it 180 degrees and reseat. The thought is whatever misalignment was present on the first seating was half on the second seating and you were now aligning correctly. Makes sense in a way.

I've tested this for my prairie dog and ground squirrel rifles. Results are mixed with no clear trend. Decided this was the individual rifle, bullet, load, seating depth kind of attribute. 

Still, you might test this thought. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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RicinYakima posted this 23 October 2022

Have done that process; it doesn't work unless the error is 180* from the first seating. Doing it again without measure is just doing it the other way. What it does do is make it less, but not same. My finding was that the between the die and thickness of the case neck, you were not getting anything straight. 

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45 2.1 posted this 23 October 2022

Ric has some very good points that are NOT used by most all people loading ammunition. Different dies used and mucking up your procedure. Having used most everything out there, hand dies for a precision jacketed rifle are very hard to beat for them. Lee Handloader dies in the old red and black box are likewise very difficult to beat for a lot of cast loads. It really depends on just what you have picked to load as far as tolerances are concerned. Match your loaded case neck diameter to the chamber case neck diameter with minimal clearance and your accuracy goes up a lot. If you have more than a thousand clearance your accuracy goes down a lot. Try it with identical loads except for clearance difference and see.

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John Alexander posted this 23 October 2022

RIC says:

"Been there and done that. Look up my article "Summer of 30-06 dies" from the 2005 thru the 2007 time period. I fired over 800 rounds in that test."

 

Excellant!  I want to reread your article. Spent some time going through a year's worth of TFS will try again.  Do you have any more exact location than  2005 -- 2007"

John

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RicinYakima posted this 23 October 2022

Sorry, I keep a paper copy of all the articles, by date written, but not by date published in the magazine. I'll send you a electronic copy. 

 

Edit: found the article and I fired 970 rounds that summer. Primers were less than $9.00 a brick. 

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Ross Smith posted this 24 October 2022

Thinking about a new thread here but the subject is pertinent here. John Ardito used an internal shelf in the case neck as a seating stop for his bullets. Usually just the gc into the case mouth. I assume the bullets were seated with his fingers at the range.The CBA apparently passed a rule against this which was later rescinded.  Is breach seating that much better than seating in the case neck? Breach seating is essentially what John was doing. I have played with this but didn't do much better. That and normal bullet seating of 100 cartridges makes for more fun at the range.

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RicinYakima posted this 24 October 2022

The key here is "much better". When you are match shooting, every .001" is important. 

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John Alexander posted this 24 October 2022

Ross,

Yes, John seated bullets during the match which used to be fairly common with those who thought case variation was a problem.  These true believers only used one case (without testing to find out if it mattered of course --"it was just common sense that it helped).  John also weighed out his powder on a sheltered beam type balance at the bench. Such foolishness has almost completely died out in CBA competition.

He also shot offhand in his bare feet to "better feel the ground". Since his offhand records still stand and his benchrest records haven't, there is a better case for bare feet than using only one case.

About the question is breach seating better? The scores over the years at the CBA nationals show that the breech seaters scores are about the same as for the custom barreled rifles (UNR, UNP, and Heavy.)  Of course the other mostly have an Ardito like throat and bump die which does about the same thing as breech seating so the results shouldn't surprise. More than one way to skin a cat.

John

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