Anyone have good accuracy with 405g cast lead bullet at long ranges?

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Last Post 04 December 2023

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JimGnitecki posted this 02 December 2023

1. Have any of you had good accuracy results using a 405g cast lead bullet at long ranges. More specifically:

- 0.5 to 0.75 MOA level accuracy

- Up to 600 yards ranges

- Using smokeless powder

- Target shooting only (not hunting)

- Using a 405g flat base, NOT hollow base, bullet (i.e. NOT the Lee 405g HB that was designed for Trapdoor shooting and apparently cannot handle more than about 1250 fps)

- Ideally, a high velocity load (since shooting st up to 600 yards and BC of a 405g cast bullet is not very high)

2. How good a Ballistic Coefficient can you get using the right casting mold? (ok, at least BC not under .225)

3. Is there a 405g bullet mold that produces an ogive that is round Head or pointed, versus flat point? (To get a BC that is better than a 450g FP would provide)

I'm asking because shooting 464g to 500g bullets out of my Pedersoli Sharps replica, with meticulous load development, cartridge preparation, and ladder testing cannot seem to get me any better than about 0.8 MOA even at just 150 meters = 164 yards, let alone 600 yards. So, I'm ready to try a different bullet weight and velocity.

Jim G

accuracy-405g

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9.3X62AL posted this 02 December 2023

Give SAECO's #021 a look-see. I spent a week one day enduring some of these at 1800-1900 FPS from my Ruger #1. They shot to that rifle's accuracy potential......about 1.25 MOA at 100 and 200.

100 meters = 109-110 yards, BTW. Yard = 36", a meter is 39.37". "164 yards" is VERY close to 150 meters, actually.

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 02 December 2023

I think you are chasing a fantasy. You cannot drive a .45-70 hard enough to avoid transonic buffeting prior to 600 yards. And trying to cast a void-free 405- grain bullet is difficult. If you are already getting sub-moa at 100 yards that is the best which can be hoped for. I would love to be proven wrong, but I feel that possibility is unlikely.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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MP1886 posted this 02 December 2023

I have an 1886 Winchester Browing carbine. It has a 20 inch barrel. I'm using the original ladder site that I modified. The sight notch piece slided up and down it and is suppose to be retained by a little leaf spring on the one side if it. It does not hold the sight and each firing it drops down some. So I modited with a little #4 screw that I made a tiny wheel for and now the sight holds. Now for my bullet. It's the RCBS 420 grain cast that will not case to the diameter I need which is .462. So I made a dies for my swage to swage it up and also change some other things such as changing it from a gas check base to a cupped base. My load is a duplex of 867 surplus with a HP38 booster topped with .5cc's of shotshell buffer. This gives me almost 1400 fps velocity and not real bad recoil. I started shooting at a water jug at 400 yards and to be able to get zeroed in I put a large cardboard under the jug which was almost 5 foot square. I started shooting and finally got on the bottom of the carboard and was able to work my rear sight elevation up and the bullet impact too. Finally I was zeroed on the jug. With that little tightening wheel I made to keep the notch sight from moving I began hitting the jug consistantly. Now one thing that shocked me was upon examining that cardboard I used to get the sighting done with there would often be two or three bullets cutting one another. That impressed me for 400 yards. BTW the alloy for the bullet was a tin/lead one. To say I'm pleased with the rifle and load would be an understatment. I have no idea what it would do at 600 yards, as for one thing I don't have that much distance where I'm shooting. My max is 469 yards.

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Bud Hyett posted this 03 December 2023

Experimenting with .45-70 loading for the last four decades, I have some thoughts. The .45-70 was my introduction to casting. Jacketed bullets for reloading were scarce and costly. I now have twelve molds from 300 to 540 grains and several .45-70 lever action and single shot rifles plus an Uberti Winchester 1876 .45-60.

The best scoring long-range black powder load is the SAECO 1881 round-nose bullet cast of 25:1 Pb/Sn alloy with 68.0 grains Swiss 1 1/2 Fg. Not the flattest shooting, this load takes two more minutes of angle elevation over the SAECO 540 grain semi-spitzer bullet at 600 yards. I score better with the 500 grain load than any other. This may be due to the transonic buffeting mentioned by Ed Harris above.

Smokeless powder with the recoil from higher velocities quickly turned me to the lighter bullets. The RCBS 45-300-FN and 45-325-FNU, and Lyman 457483 bullets shoot well with Reloder #7 and IMR 3031 powder pushing from 1400 to 1750 feet-per-second. I've never shot these for testing beyond 200 yards since these are bullets for hunting loads. These bullets are too flat-nosed for long-range shooting.

My experience recommends the SAECO 1881 500 grain round-nose Government bullet.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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JimGnitecki posted this 03 December 2023

Thank-you, Bud. I will carefully investigate that bullet mold. I say carefully because:

- Looking at its ogive, it is a very bulbuous bullet, similar in shape to a Lyman 500g mold I already tried. That ogive shape proved to be TOO bulbuous for my rifle's apparently narrow throat - I was unable to close the falling block on the cartridge. I had to go with a Lee 459 500 3R mold that has a sharper ogive. That is the bullet that I got to 0.8 MOA with.

- The key length dimesnions of the SAECO 1881 bullet are apprently:

Bullet Length-1.30"

Bottom of Crimp Groove to Bullet Nose-.816"

Even with my trimmed cartridge length of 2.090" (.015" under the max trim-to length), that would create a COAL = 2.906", which is pretty long, and which coupled with my narrow throat and the bulbuous ogive shape, woud quite possibly , like the Lyman bullet, not allow chambering of the cartridge without a chmabering tool, and forcing it in that way into the throat might raise the peak pressure too much for safety.

But I will investigate in more detail.

Also though, I was asking about lighter weight bullets because I really want to raise the muzzle velocity to reduce the rainbow trajectory that results from using a 500g bullet.

What would maybe be ideal is a 350g to 405g NON-hunting bullet that has a .250 or better BC. That would keep the bullet supersonic longer, which would delay any tarnsonic effects a bit and also enable me to shoot to at least 250 yards for practice with my incoming Shotmarker electronic target system, which can detect bullets only when they are supersonic. Practicing with that system at 250 yards beats walking back and forth to a paper target system!

Jim G

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MP1886 posted this 03 December 2023

Jim what you talked about was the shape of that nose. That's why when I made the swage to swage up my undersize bullet I made and change in the nose profile with the nose punch for the bullet too. I'm real pleased how it sailed to 400 yard with very good accuracy even at the low speed I let her go at.

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JimGnitecki posted this 03 December 2023

MP1886: You made major changes to that bullet via the swaging, increasing the diameter significantly, removing the gas check provision, and changing the nose. You obviously ended up with a great solution! But, I don't see how I could possibly reproduce the exact same dimensions! And even if I could, your ,462" diameter would be way too large for my Pedersoli, which seems to like .459".

I'm not equipped at all, via either skill sets or equipment, to modify a mold, and I would not know what changes are needed anyway! I need a solutino where the mold can be bought, and where the price is not so prohibitive as to be discouraging if it does not work for me (Lee molds are at least inexpensive AND they don't rust!).

Jim G

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MP1886 posted this 03 December 2023

Jim about my bullet diameter I find that for me and my rifles the fattest diameter that will let the cartridge chamber without any problems shoots the best.

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JimGnitecki posted this 03 December 2023

I agree with you generally on that, My Pedersoli has, per my gunsmith, a.4563" bore. I started with .460" sizing, but .459" sizing seemed to produce SLIGHTLY better 5-shot groups at 164 yards. .459" is .0027" larger than the bire diameter, so that makes sense. I could try .458", but to do so I would need to lose my carefulyl developed expander setting. When I tried to seat .458" bullets, they were not held sufficiently to stay in place during my "zero" crimping (which was done to merely remove the belling, and they were pushed back into the case by the de-belling operation.

But I may try the .458" bullets again, if I reach the point where further refinement efforts on a 500g bullet weight range seem futile, and so losing the careful expander setting won't matter since I will be changing to a lighter weight bullet.

Jim G

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MP1886 posted this 03 December 2023

I got you, I was thinking your rifle had a tight bore and groove. My Browning/Winchester has a .458 groove and that RCBS bullet as I had said would only cast as fat as .457. It shot okay that way, but when I went to .462 she really started to shine.

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CBA Member

Aaron posted this 03 December 2023

Two words. Paper Patch.

Use swaged bullets

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Lee Guthrie posted this 04 December 2023

I tried this mould in a Ruger #1, but had limited success and have never found the time to go back to it. "Most likely" an increase in diameter would have shown improvement, but ........

NEI 405458 400gr SP GC

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JimGnitecki posted this 04 December 2023

I tried this mould in a Ruger #1, but had limited success and have never found the time to go back to it. "Most likely" an increase in diameter would have shown improvement, but ........

NEI 405458 400gr SP GC

That is unfortunately what happens after you have tried so many changes looking for improvement and you just get tired of the lack of success after all that effort. That's how I feel about my 500g weight range cast bullet program right now. Buying yet another 500g weight range mold is not an attractive option for me right now, as a 3-piece collection of less than successful molds is probably enough! That's why I am looking at 400g bullets now. I need a BIG change, not another unsuccessful iteration.

On another forum that I go to often, at last a couple of shooters have told me that getting groups as good as 0.8 MOA is a real accomplishment with a modern Sharps replica shooting cast bullets. They are suggesting I switch my focus from trying to shoot tighter groups to shooting at a decently sized metal gong at long ranges, and begin to enjoy the positive feedback of each metallic ring when I hit it. That may be pretty good advice.

Jim G

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CBA Member

Bud Hyett posted this 04 December 2023

In aerospace we have a saying, "There comes a time when you must shoot the engineers and begin production."

Get a mold as close to your specifications as you can, a semi-custom mold. The only standard mold maker I'll buy from now is SAECO since RCBS seems to be slowly dropping their mold business. Cast and practice with it until you are comfortable with your sight settings.

If the game is within two hundred yards, you'll have the sight setting for this range with known slight holdover for beyond 150 yards to 200 yards.
If the game is over two hundred yards, they will usually not spook and you'll have time to adjust sights.
A few rounds at known distances will give you the exact sight settings.
If the game is moving, you'll have the experience to shoot Kentucky windage.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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MP1886 posted this 04 December 2023

Jim what you need to do is make a cast of the chamber, let me explain what part, the part of the neck portion up through the throat, freebore, the leade, and little bit of the bore and rifling. I like the pound cast method as it's permement after making it whereas cerosafe shrinks. Then with a precise measuring instrument measure all along the cast where the bullet is going to be setting and what it will traverse through upon firing. You want a bullet shape that is going to correspond with that cast you done. This way the bullet will guide into the bore straight. It will also tell you if the nose profile on your bullet will work. If you draw up a bullet that matches what the cast pattern wants there are mold makers that can pretty close duplicate it such as Accurate Molds and NOE. Good luck

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JimGnitecki posted this 04 December 2023

In aerospace we have a saying, "There comes a time when you must shoot the engineers and begin production."

Get a mold as close to your specifications as you can, a semi-custom mold. The only standard mold maker I'll buy from now is SAECO since RCBS seems to be slowly dropping their mold business. Cast and practice with it until you are comfortable with your sight settings.

If the game is within two hundred yards, you'll have the sight setting for this range with known slight holdover for beyond 150 yards to 200 yards.

If the game is over two hundred yards, they will usually not spook and you'll have time to adjust sights.

A few rounds at known distances will give you the exact sight settings.

If the game is moving, you'll have the experience to shoot Kentucky windage.

There is no game here. Zero hunting. Target only, whether that be paper or gong.

Jim G

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JimGnitecki posted this 04 December 2023

Jim what you need to do is make a cast of the chamber, let me explain what part, the part of the neck portion up through the throat, freebore, the leade, and little bit of the bore and rifling. I like the pound cast method as it's permement after making it whereas cerosafe shrinks. Then with a precise measuring instrument measure all along the cast where the bullet is going to be setting and what it will traverse through upon firing. You want a bullet shape that is going to correspond with that cast you done. This way the bullet will guide into the bore straight. It will also tell you if the nose profile on your bullet will work. If you draw up a bullet that matches what the cast pattern wants there are mold makers that can pretty close duplicate it such as Accurate Molds and NOE. Good luck

Sounds liek soemthing I should have my gunsmith do. I lack the materials, tools, and expertise to do a cats of the chamber properly and without damaging the firearm

Jim G