I would like to hear from others about how often they clean a barrel when shooting cast bullets with smokeless powder.
I shoot a lot of cast bullets in a 22 hornet and I sometimes can go about 150 shots without cleaning and still maintain an acceptable level of accuracy. When my 22 hornet wants to be cleaned it lets me know by flinging shots all over creation.
Now I am trying to work out the best accuracy in a 25 hornet bench rifle where 1/ 10th inch in grouping makes or breaks the game. I just went through my first batch of 100 bullets in this rifle without cleaning and am getting respectable results but just started wondering if regular cleaning intervals might help me shave the 1/10th inch of my groups. I have read of small bore shooters that refuse to clean their barrel at all opting for a constant fouled condition . So rather than take 40 years to learn on my own I thought it more wise to ask of those that already have the 40 years experience. What say ye ?
about barrel cleaning
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- Last Post 07 April 2023
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I clean after every shooting session. Due to upbringing and NRA as well as USMC training, I simply CAN'T shelve a dirty firearm.
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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When shooting CBA Military rifles at the National matches, at the end of the day: one wet patch of Ed's Red followed by two dry patches. That was 60 record shots and maybe 20 foulers and sighters. At the end of the season I would run a wet nylon bore brush several times paying attention to the area of the throat. I appears to me that primer residue and powder coatings build up after a thousand rounds or so.
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So my question to the two that have responded is after you have cleaned how many fouling shots are required to settle the barrel to a constant fouled condition for uniform grouping.
What I see in my shooting is normally starting with a clean barrel a wild first shot far from the POI of successive shots and a POI shift until the barrel reaches its constant condition which can require up to about a dozen shots depending on the condition of the barrel being used.
For this reason I sometimes question regular cleaning sessions. When shooting cast bullets that have been conventionally lubed there is a protective layer of lube in the barrel so as long as the rifle is kept in a dry place rust in the barrel is not a problem We have only wood heat at my home so our air is very dry. Other type of heat like propane add moistier to the air so may not be as trouble free as at my home
Of course the lube film alone is not as protective as cleaned and oiled but it sure eliminates a lot of fouling shots to achieve the constant fouled condition.
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Small bore shooters have established this cleaning routine over the decades and I have followed it. The only alteration that I have found is testing when changing brands of ammunition. Then I clean thoroughly and put five shots into the backstop to foul and condition the bore. This involves many patchs when trying to find a new ammunition to shoot.
When shooting cast bullet rifles at the end of the relay; one wet patch of Ed's Red followed by two dry patches. At the end of the day, thorough cleaning and several patches with Kroil as a preservative. The thorough cleaning is several strokes with nylon brush, being sure to clean the area in front of the chamber to remove primer fouling.
The exception is one of my CPA Stevens with a Shilen barrel. If I clean during a match, the rifle shoots "improved cylinder" for three or four shots. If I clean during a match, this rifle will often shoot the first shot into the bottom left target with a good hold and letoff on the sighting target. Thus this particular rifle only gets cleaned at the end of the match. I have no idea why this happens.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Bullshop,
I live in the desert, so rust is not an issue for me. One wet patch will not clean the barrel. Ed's Red is not like commercial bore cleaners, but leaves a oil film in the bore.
The next trip to the range will take three to four shots to settle in and it depends upon the temperature; hotter, fewer shots.
I only clean down to bare metal at the end of the season. I dislike Kroil as it is so hard to remove to begin shooting again the next year, normally requiring MEK or acetone to get it out. Then I pre-season the bore with a patch of my bullet lube, well rubbed in. Then it is about ten shots to get it stable. That is why I only do it once a year.
Note, I don't have match rifles, but just run of the mill military. I don't know that a match barrel requires a different method.
Ric
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Thank you gentlemen ! This is all good information and is making me start to think that cleaning procedures are as varied as the people that use them.
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So my question to the two that have responded is after you have cleaned how many fouling shots are required to settle the barrel to a constant fouled condition for uniform grouping.
I don't shoot the competition circuit any more but when I did I would get three fouling shots off downrange and wet mop, dry patch, repeat as needed through a match. I still hunt so I always determine where the first shot in a cold clean bore will go. Frankly for hunting accuracy, the first shot is always a minute of deer accuracy anyway and is never more than a few inches away from of fouled bore group. That's fine for hunting.
For load development I foul with three shots and then start the days work looking for excessive bore fouling or leading development. I'll wet mop/dry patch after lunch but won't scrub with a bore brush until the end of the session.
Note that all the above is with smokeless powder. When shooting BPCR, cleaning is absolutely requisite after a range session and periodic swabbing is needed throughout a shooting session. Sometimes I come home looking like a coal miner.
With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.
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So my question to the two that have responded is after you have cleaned how many fouling shots are required to settle the barrel to a constant fouled condition for uniform grouping. -Three to five with most rifles. Some rifles require more. You can only determine this in practice. .
What I see in my shooting is normally starting with a clean barrel a wild first shot far from the POI of successive shots and a POI shift until the barrel reaches its constant condition which can require up to about a dozen shots depending on the condition of the barrel being used. - I have two similar rifles. This has been confirmed by simulating match times in practice. Both are more accurate than I can currently shoot.
The other consideration that I have found is some rifles need to come to a certain temperature range to shoot well. Several fouling shots will also raise the barrel temperature if this particurlaparticular rifle shoots in a selected range. This can be confused with the cleaning regimen.
Of course the lube film alone is not as protective as cleaned and oiled but it sure eliminates a lot of fouling shots to achieve the constant fouled condition. - Years of experience have shown that cleaning and protective film are needed. Added fouling shots are not a problem if I know they are needed. This can be determined by using various cleaning routines at practice and recording the results.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Wow this is exactly the meat and potatoes I was looking for. Thank you all !
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I am with Ric ,wet patch Ed,s then a couple of dry, just cleans out all the crud! For longer time storage a patch of sweets oil does the trick. Cheers Mal in au.
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Don't shoot competition but when going to the range run 25-50 rounds of cast through my A3. A slightly dampened patch (what ever bore cleaner comes to hand first) and after a few minutes wipe out with a dry patch or two. Storage is in a controlled environment and have had no problems with this method. Before next range trip wipe out with dry patches to ensure no cleaner residue in the barrel.
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I use 1 patch with Ed's Red, followed by 2 dry patches ONLY when my groups or scores start "going south". I am shooting a Savage 16 in .250 Savage.
I just wish I knew right before the shots were gonna go south!
After cleaning, it takes at least 5 shots to condition the bore SOMETIMES. Sometimes it will place the first shot after cleaning, right where I wanted it to go!
Seems as tho I have a rifle with a mind of it's own . Maybe A.I. has crept in it?
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Thats interesting. I shoot a 250 Savage too. Mine is a vintage 1930's bench rifle built on an 1918 Obendorf Mauser.
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Although each rifle and pistol is different the most used rifles in my stable have not shown to require frequent cleaning. Group sizes have not decreased after cleaning. I usually shoot about 3 shots from a clean bore. Rifles that see mostly or completely jacketed bullets get cleaned often. Centerfire pistols after each range trip.
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I have had good luck treating my military cast match rifles almost like a .22. Several times a year I clean and lube the action. Once a year at the beginning of the season I clean out the bore w/ patches of Kroil and JB Bore Paste.
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I shoot 5 different .30 calibers, 2 30-30’s and 3 30-06’s. They haven’t seen a jacketed bullet in years. After each range trip, I pull an oiled patch thru the bore two times, just to remove any residue and provide a little rust protection. I do a thorough cleaning when I start feeling guilty, maybe every three or four years.
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I’m with Mark. I only clean during a match if things are going really badly, and I’m desperate. Usually doesn’t help, cause it’s almost always the loose nut behind the trigger.
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It seems to me that wiit a well balanced load one that has a chamber pressure that is within the optimum pressure range for the powder being used that once the barrel settles to a constant fouled condition you should be able to shoot continuously without cleaning and without accuracy degradation.
It is when chamber pressure is below the optimum range for the powder that fouling continues to build until it reaches a critical level that degrades accuracy.
Also too high a chamber pressure for the BHN of the alloy can build up lead fouling that causes the same problem.
I generally figure about one Brinell point per 100 fps velocity keeps things about rite Another way to be in the ballpark for BHN to chamber pressure is to multiply BHN x 2000 so a BHN 10 would be right for around 20,000 psi and a BHN20 would be around 40,000 psi.
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Bullshop-- What mould designs do you use in your .250 Savage? I use the Saeco 25-100 primarily, but also play around with a Cramer 55A, RCBS 25-100, and most recently an NOE 260 105FN.
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My early Griffen & How 250 Savage bench rifle has a slow twist at 1/14" so am limited as to bullet length/weight. It likes bullets not much over 85gn weight. I have a few vintage molds from Ideal, Winchester, and Yankee that were intended for the 25-20 that work well in G&H rifle.
I also have a Thompson Encore barrel with a 1/10" and it does good with 100 and 120gn bullets both from RCBS molds
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Bullshop-- My Savage 16 has a 1:10 twist so I am able to use heavier bullets. I have the RCBS 25-120, and use it in my .25-06 that is also 1:10, but have yet to try it in the .250 Savage.
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