Why so little interest-.40 S&W

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Last Post 13 July 2013

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tturner53 posted this 19 March 2013

I've been wondering why I don't see much cast bullet interest in the .40 S&W. Am I just not seeing it? Most .40 S&W brass seems to be left on the deck at the range. Out of curiosity I checked the 2013 Gun Digest for .40 revolvers. There was only one I could find, the Charter Arms Pitbull. How about a Ruger Blackhawk .40? They come in 9mm, so you know it's doable. Lipsey?

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Rodfac posted this 19 March 2013

It's a cartridge that I've always wanted to like....45 ACP performance (at least the 185 gr .45 version), in a smaller framed gun. I once found a Colt 1911 Elite Gold Cup in .40 S&W...seems Colt ran a cpl hundred off back in the 80's. I tried for several years to get that gun to perk...refitted the barrel bushing, rail tightening, countless powders and a variety of bullets...no luck. Accuracy would run to 2” at 25 yds from rest, then I'd get a cpl flyers from each magazine. I'm not looking for suggestions here as to that gun, just commenting on the cartridge. In the end, I just concluded that it wasn't capable of the accuracy that the old .45 demonstrated over the years.

Long story shortened....I've since picked up a Glock 23 and found that it really liked 165 gr, dare I say it...jacketed bullets. I've also acquired a Sig 226 that will shoot both cast and jacketed bullets of several weights into sub-2” gps at 25...'bout as good as these old eyes can do over open sights.

The 40's a good 'cop' cartridge...manageable recoil with plenty of zip...good too for HD purposes in smaller framed autos...but as a revolver cartridge? Those half moon clips drive me nuts...I'd not be a potential buyer no matter how well it shot!

Best Regards, Rodfac (Here's a pic of that Colt .40)

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72coupe posted this 19 March 2013

There certainly is lots of 40 brass left at our range. I am guessing most of the gangsta's don't reload.

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Wineman posted this 20 March 2013

Must be that the “gangstas” are using an SKS and are used to throwing away the brass...

Someone once told me it stood for 40 short and wimpy. A duplication of the 38-40 ballistics and no rim. As said a good self defense and police round. EK's 41 mag was supposed to be the LEO end all to end all and it barely survives as the premier mag hunting round. Cooper's 10 mm was another big round in a small gun that most found too much to hang on to. There are plenty of mismatches but when it is comfortable to shoot it seem to survive in greater numbers.

Dave

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buffalo george posted this 21 March 2013

There is a rumour ,here in Italy,saying that there are a lot of wrecked 40 S&W pistols,they say that pressure is too much for the ordinary 9 mm pistols in which it is chambered..

Besides it is a complicated solution to a non existent problem.

I have 45ACP pistols for business and 9x21 for low recoil and cheap fun.

All 911 clones ,of course.

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LWesthoff posted this 21 March 2013

I have a Delta Elite (10mm on a 1911 frame) and I LIKE the 10mm! I can load it down for fun and it's still quite accurate, and I can load it up to not-quite-max loads for business. (When I say accurate, I have to admit that although I got my Distinguished Expert Badge 30 plus years ago, I'm a little too shaky now to be competitive.)

But I still think the 10mm is a much better cartridge than the .40.

Wes

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Vassal posted this 21 March 2013

I enjoy 40 SW and have multiple firearms, including a Beretta Mini cougar kept by my pillow. I also have and enjoy a Glock 20 (10mm.) The 40 IS popular, though I think it may be a generational issue. Even now the majority of Handloaders are of the 9mm vs 45ACP era and while it IS true that 40SW doesn't do anything that can't be accomplished by one of the others, it DOES manage a better balance; a fact clearly not lost on Law Enforcement. I am 35 and aside from nostalgia and novelty see absolutely no pragmatic need for a low pressure, old fashion, cowboy auto (Not a slam of course just a succinct statement of my position.) That said Nostalgia and novelty possess quite a draw and I've had a recent eye candy appetite for 1911's. If you have 9's and 45's already, or are accustomed to them, the 40SW will offer you little (outside of considerations for duty or competition.) However if you are starting with a clean slate and building familiarity, tooling and practice with handgun calibres from scratch, the 40 may be your choice. It was mine. PS I will gladly accept shipments of all that trash brass laying around your shooting haunts.

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Duane Trusty posted this 22 March 2013

The usual problem of wrecked forty's is do to hot loads. Barrels that didnot have a lot of support at the bottom rear of the chamber. No different when hot rodding the 38 Super or 45 ACP in the original unramped barrels and some folk tried to hot rod them.

I have an after market barrel for my Glock 23 and have not had a problem. I watch my brass and don't push the loads into the red zone. This barrel has much better support then the original Glock barrel.

Duane

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delmarskid1 posted this 22 March 2013

We were hitting a 10” gong once in a while at 200 yds. or so with my friends Glock .40S&W using Winchester fmj's. I think they shoot pretty good.

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tturner53 posted this 22 March 2013

I'm not knocking the .40, it's success speaks for itself and I wouldn't object to having one if I was going to the OK Corral for real. I just noticed it doesn't come up much regards cast bullets.

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buffalo george posted this 29 March 2013

I was thinking that the free pick up brass has its importance in the costs of shooting any caliber. Has anyone studied the lowest pressure loads that cycle the guns with cast bullets?

The pistol wrecking horror stories might be caused by the constant use of top loads.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 March 2013

My understanding is that most of the .40 autopistols require full charge loads for reliable cycling. Once the gun is detuned to function with light loads, you are setting yourself up for frame cracking if full-charge loads are used without swapping the service spring set back.

Pressure levels are 35,000 psi, the same as for 9mm Parabellum. I am told most current pistols refuse to cycle with loads less than 1000 fps with the 165-grain bullet. Those who do use cast bullets use a 180-grain at 900-950 fps with 5.5 grs. of Bullseye, 6 grs. of W231 or 6.5 of Unique. Cowboy bullets intended for the .38-40 feed OK.

When I was at Ruger we experimented with a New Model Blackhawk having both 10mm Auto and .40 S&W cylinders, but there were insufficient orders to put it into production. If any distributor has a spare $million burning a hole in their pocket they would make 1000 of them for you and maybe throw in a .38-40 cylinder for the cowboy shooters 8-).

Bill Ruger Senior frequently admonished me when I worked for the company:

"Young man, your job is to sell what is in the catalogue, NOT to think up new models!"

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mckg posted this 29 March 2013

Thanks for you insight guys. I'm trying not to look at .40's since I load and cast my own, and they never show well in the accuracy department even with jacketed bullets. I will however give one a try, the NZ 85B, since I have a bunch of free brass already along with a P9 top in 9mm.

Ed, I really enjoy your stories from Ruger... I read Wilson's book some years ago and was curious about the Security Six's history. It seems that Colt beat them to the production of a modern DA revolver with the MkIII series, after hiring an engineer who had freshly been thanked by Ruger. Ruger then apparently rushed a “yet unnamed” gun to production. Despite the lack of designation, the soon to become Security Six got the cover of Gun Digest.

Could you provide some insight about the matter?

Thanks in advance.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 March 2013

mckg wrote: Ed, I really enjoy your stories from Ruger... I read Wilson's book some years ago and was curious about the Security Six's history...Could you provide some insight about the matter?

Security Six was being phased out by the time I got there and the GP100 and SP101 were in development. The Security Six, Service Six and Speed Six were good sellers, but more labor intensive than they wanted. The GP series has common design features with the Redhawk and is a stronger gun, easier to produce. The Security Six tooling and gages all went to Manhurin in France, where they are still making them under their name for sale in the EU.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 30 March 2013

So, Ed, I am thinking of retiring my Colt 357 6". It is too light and the full checkered grips eat the skin off my old soft hands. What Security Six should I buy. Blue? Stainless? I want a 6” for sure. Ric

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afish4570 posted this 30 March 2013

buffalo george wrote: There is a rumour ,here in Italy,saying that there are a lot of wrecked 40 S&W pistols,they say that pressure is too much for the ordinary 9 mm pistols in which it is chambered..

Besides it is a complicated solution to a non existent problem.

I have 45ACP pistols for business and 9x21 for low recoil and cheap fun.

All 911 clones ,of course. I think the Glock unsupported barrels gave the 40 a bad reputation. Keep them clean and they are all decent. I just whipped up a batch of lee 175 gr FP for the coming IDPA shoots in my Berreta 96. Saves some lead comparing my 45 using 230gr. compared to 40 using 180 gr. Duty guns are no bullseye guns but for action shooting they are fine.....Scrounged enough brass so that is not an issue yet. afish4570:dude::dude:

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mckg posted this 30 March 2013

Ed Harris wrote: The Security Six tooling and gages all went to Manhurin in France, where they are still making them under their name for sale in the EU.

Thanks again Ed; it was right before my eyes, so familiar, but I gave too much credit to Manurhin for developing their own variation of the design... The 88 has a cover plate on the right side of the frame, and a “service sight” trench along the top of said frame, as the company didn't want to make two different set of casting dies for fixed and adjustable versions.

http://www.chapuis-armes.com/26-manurhin

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Ed Harris posted this 30 March 2013

RicinYakima wrote: So, Ed, I am thinking of retiring my Colt 357 6". It is too light and the full checkered grips eat the skin off my old soft hands. What Security Six should I buy. Blue? Stainless? I want a 6” for sure. Ric

They quit making the Security Six in 1990. They ran enough repair parts to supply customer service needs for 25 years, but are probably getting close to the bottom of the barrel now. The GP100 replaced it and is a much sturdier gun, intended as a “poor man's Python."

Blue or stainless is matter of personal preference.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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offhand35 posted this 30 March 2013

I recall that Ruger said recently that they have discontinued support for the Service Six series.

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offhand35 posted this 30 March 2013

Over the past few years I have have gone CDO over the 40S&W, to the point where every non-C&R repeating handgun in use is a 40S&W except for my NMBH 44spl and New Model Bearcat. I even had an 11” 40S&W bbl made up at MGM for my Contender from a cut-off sale they had a few years ago. With all that, I have not found the accuracy to be what it “should” be in relation to all that has been spent. However, I can still shoot it better and more to my own satisfaction than I can any 357 or 41 mag that I have had. I have been working on assembling a cast load to participate in the timed fire handgun, fixed sights postal match with my Vaquero in 40S&W. It has been interesting so far, the cyl throats slug .404, while the bbl slugs .390/.402. I just cast up some RCBS 40-180-SWC 's with 30:1 , and they come out .403 as cast. So they will be tumble lubed and shot as cast. Maybe those will shoot as well as my 44spl....

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tturner53 posted this 30 March 2013

1) “CDO", thankyou! Finally. I don't have it but do count everything I see or hear, like counting the syllables while someone is speaking. If I did have IT I would keep it to myself anyway. 2) A .40 S&W Vaquero?! I did not know that. I want one.

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Duke M posted this 01 April 2013

Here is my guess on why the 40 S&W is not more popular with bullet casting reloaders. We are an aging group and are having a hard time accepting the trend of modern ugly plastic guns. The 40 S&W happens to be used in those soul less, molded, black pieces of Tupperware. I'm 59 and I have not been very impressed with any factory offerings in a long time. For the life of me I cannot understand why with all the modern computer driven machinery we can't even get a butt stock on an inexpensive single shot rifle to be as graceful as an old cheap Savage model 219. The 40 is a cartridge stuck in an era of modern ugly guns that don't turn us on.

Duke

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Spud posted this 01 April 2013

Call me one of those soul-less Toys 'r Us gun lovers (actually I love 'em all) and I've been casting 40's for the last 2 weeks. I use the Lee 175-TC 6 cavity mold. Boolits drop at @183 gr., so my alloy's pretty soft. Shoot great at reasonable velocities sans appreciable leading in a Glock 23 (LWD replacement) and a Ruger SR40.

Chrono'd in the Glock the other day at 962 FPS avg. for 5 shots, so they're not exactly mouse f--t loads. The 40 S&W can grow on ya.

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offhand35 posted this 01 April 2013

Duke, I am sure that there is one thing in regard to the 40S&W that will appeal to your 59yo way of thinking ....the brass is SO plentiful and cheap, it can be had by the 5 gal bucketful! I just had to find a way to use it, and fell in love with the caliber!

tturner53, there are a very few Vaquero's out there in 40S&W, they apparently were in honor of the California Sheriff's Ass'n or some such. I found one nib when they were only about the same as any other Vaquero, but now you would think they are gold plated, not stainless steel.

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6pt-sika posted this 01 April 2013

A few years bag when I was hung up on Sig's I had a 40 s&W in a P229 that thing was very accurate and that was back when I could shoot a pistol relatively well ! At the time I also had a couple P220's in 45 ACP that did very nicely finally I had a P226 in 9 Jigamatic and that one also did well . But to be totally honest I never really liked the 9 Jiggymatic . I did however really like the 49 S&W and if course the 45 . I however was never of the mind to shoot cast in any of them !

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Duke M posted this 04 April 2013

offhand35, you got that 5 gal. bucket thing right! My dear old Dad cleaned up a range for years and I sold the last buckets of 9 and 40 for 2 bucks a pound right before all the craziness started. Sometimes our timing just sucks. Still and all it's the ugly guns that turn me off. Now that said, I have a Glock 36 and a Glock 21 for duty use, but they are still ugly. I shoot them to stay proficient and to qualify. I shoot cool guns for recreation and enjoyment.

Duke

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 April 2013

since my 1984 m92S beretta ( 9mm ) has yet to jam the first time, i would like to recommend this Bell und Whistle lethal weapon ... in it's 40sw form ... the m96 ... to some friends ... but never see them here in iowa ...( one in italy !! ) ...anybody heard anything bad about this configuration ?

ken oh, my son n law shoots a springfield dsm, 40sw, i could learn to really like that one ...

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afish4570 posted this 04 April 2013

I too thought the 40 S&W wasn't a great cal. being I had .45's and 9mm already....Got a 96 Beretta Model G (decocker only making it like my Sig) top end only and put it on my 92 Frame....works gread and gives me two guns. A plus is the 180gr bullets save alittle lead, sm. pistol primers are already on hand and cuts down on the lg. pistol primers usage. Saving the lg. for the .45. Accurate enough for the action pistol shooting I do. Shot at club the other evening and most shooters were using 9mm, (2)40's,(5) 45's. The 45 shooters were diving for there brass and the rest only a few picked up the brass. With the high cost and lack of affordable ammo you are seeing more 9mm shooters. due to cost. Total was 24 shooters, down a few.afish4570

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olesmokey posted this 12 July 2013

I use a s&w 610 6.5 inch classic for action pistol matches at my club. Its chambered in 10mm but uses moonclips which I use for 40s&w cartridge. I load these with 180 grain Horn LSWC swaged bullet tumble lubed with Lee Lubalox over 6grains VihtN340. At 872fps they are pleasant shooting accurate and knock over the steel and pins just fine. I have 10mm brass but have never needed to load it. 40 brass is abundant and cheap. Some of the guys I shoot with have ruger buckeyes chambered in 38-40 and 10mm. They shoot very well. Whats not to like?