Wads for black powder cartridges

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  • Last Post 28 February 2013
Windflag posted this 31 January 2013

I want to start loading my 45-70 for black powder and I realize I will need over-powder wads. I read some place where gasket punches make great wads out of old milk cartons, etc.
My question is what would be the appropriate size given the slight taper of the case? That article mentioned 7/16---is that correct?
Harbor Freight has a set for around $7.00. Thank you!

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Ed Harris posted this 31 January 2013

7/16” is only .4375” OK for .43 Spanish 11.5mm - 29/64” is .453, still too small 15/32 is .468 a bit large....

No standard punches you can readily buy are correct.

You need one of these:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/239/7/WAD-PUNCH-45 Or just buy Walters Wads from Midway

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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nimrod posted this 31 January 2013

I measured some of mine and they measure .465 using Fred Cornells die they fit plenty tight.

RB

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Tom Acheson posted this 31 January 2013

Mine are for a .40-70 SS, made from veggie sheet stock, .060” thick. I also use poly wads of the same thickness. The punch is from Fred Cornell. The OD is approx. 0.417"-0.419". As they are pushed into the case it feels like a sliding interference fit.

But...a lot people come up with quite a few different materials to serve as a wad.

Tom

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mike morrison posted this 01 February 2013

Fred's punches are top of the line.

John Walters offers his wads at $20.+$1. shipping for 1000. he lives in Moore Oklahoma give him a call his number is(405)799-0376

the best free material i have found for making wads is the heavy rigid material frame stores use for matting pictures. it is about .050 and works good. I use it with one of Fred's punches. The frame shops will give you their scraps if ya ask. m

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delmarskid1 posted this 01 February 2013

I don't know who made mine but it came from Buffalo Arms and works fine. It's a good idea to seat the wads separately from the bullet seating if you plan on compressing the powder. Compressing the charge with the bullet squishes the soft bullets and they may not chamber. Culled from experience sad to say.

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mike morrison posted this 01 February 2013

when i bought mine from Fred I ask him if he made the ones for Buffalo Arms, he said yes. m

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Ed Harris posted this 01 February 2013

When I was loading blackpowder or Pyrodex in the .45-70 I had good results using the expander die to seat the wad and compress the powder. Not sure that's completely Kosher today, but I did so cautiously and never blew myself up.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tbierley posted this 03 February 2013

I have been loading black powder in 45/70 for 5 years. I have been using a 45 Long Colt casing to cut the powder wad. I use cork that is .060. I compress the powder .250 and load 70grs of Goex 2F powder.

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PETE posted this 03 February 2013

Ed,

I don't know about kosher but I've been doing the same as you did when compressing powder. I even made up a die to fit in a 310 tool so I could compress while loading for breech seated bullets at the range. Find it hard to believe steel on brass is going to generate any spark. As for static electricity many tests have been done trying to get it to ignite BP and the conclusions were there's no way you can generate a spark that will set BP of. I've often wondered if BP was so easy to ignite why were all the old duPont cans made of steel?

As for wads I've used tablet backing, milk carton, and veggie wads. About all I use now are veggie wads that I get directly from John Walters or Buffalo Arms.

As Ed mentioned in an earlier message those gasket punch kits don't work. That's experience talking. :)

Pete

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Dale53 posted this 03 February 2013

I go along with those who recommend Fred Cornell's loading press mounted wad punches. I have three of them (.32, .40, and .45). I shot black powder cartridge rifle silhouette for fifteen years and they are effortless to use and you can cut 1000 wads in an hour or so. AND-D-D, they are perfect!

I used low density polyethelene. Tests were done several years ago and it took .060” thick wads to protect the bullet base (BPCR bullets are SOFT).

Further, I use a custom wad seating punch (press mounted) to compress the powder. I THEN seat the bullet. If you try to compress the powder with a soft bullet, you WILL deform it.

I had access to a five hundred yard range less than an hour away and ran many bench tests at that distance to reach my conclusions.

FWIW Dale53

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PETE posted this 03 February 2013

Dale,

Do you feel that .060 poly wads are the only way to protect the bullet base or will veggie wads, or something similar, work?

Wouldn't mind ordering one of Fred Cornell's punches but also wondering what size you got your punch made up at groove diam., or somewhat over? I've got an original Win. Highwall in .38/55 with a groove diam. of .381. What size would you recommend I order?

Pete

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R Dupraz posted this 04 February 2013

The wad punch that I have used since I started shooting my Shiloh 45x2.4, AKA 45-90,came from Buffalo Arms. And I have punched the wads from .060” LDP Sheets since the beginning. Only because that's what most of the group was using at that time. They have proven to work as well in this rifle as anything else for me. I have shot some very nice groups with grease grove as well as PP on out to 1000 yds.

As I recall, I read in one of Dave Gullo's cataloges where he wrote a note on the sizing of wads. He said that the wad should be no larger than .002- .003” over groove. Anyway, these LPD wads, when just punched out by my drill press were coming out at about.003+". So, by first turning on the drill press and then punching the wads, the diameter was right at .458", groove for the .45. So,that's the way I have done it since then.

Now, I have no sientific hoopala to prove it but after punching the wads closer to the groove diameter, I noticed that my groups had fewer flyers, were smaller and more consistant. So I think there might be something to the idea.

From time to time I have also used vegitable wads and some punched out of paper automotive gasket materiel.Some have worked in different rifles better than others

So, I am of the opinon that there are many different wads that can be used but the rifle will tell you what it likes, Where have we heard that before?

In the end, I do believe that “size matters"

RD

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PETE posted this 04 February 2013

RD,

Your opinion seems to be what some of the other BP shooters seem to think. Some recommend no more than .001” over groove.

Pete

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Michael K posted this 04 February 2013

The theory behind wad diameter from what I have read and come to understand from several referance sources is if the wad too large in diameter it can lead to case stretching and possible case seperation. When the powder charge ignites, the wad compresses expanding outward. If too large in diameter it will grab the case walls and pull the brass forward as the wad begins it's journey.

As far as wad material goes; I use paper milk/OJ cartons for material. Thickess is approx .026” and I stack however many I need to meet the desired compression with the powder charge I am using. Generally I try to stay with one type of carton ie Tropicana OJ. Thickness does seem to vary a bit form one brand to the next. My wad punches come from C.T. Baily in Ranchester, WY. 7/8x14 body with punch fitting in the shell holder ram. My 45cal from C.T. punches out a .463 diameter wad.

Michael

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Dale53 posted this 04 February 2013

Pete; I will not say the LDPE is the only wad material. But, for me, the flyers that I had before I started using .060” LDPE were eliminated at long range after I converted to LDPE.

Protection of the bullet base (by actual bullet capture tests) showed it took .060” material to protect the bullet base. That includes paper wads. However, I believe that the LDPE expands against the bullet base and provides a perfect “bullet base” as the wad/bullet ass'y leaves the barrel. We all know that the bullet base is the steering end of the bullet for accuracy.

I will not argue with others what works in their rifles but my mind is satisfied that LDPE is the best material for the job. However, there are some ranges that prohibit plastic wads (they pretty much last forever where they land). Paper wads will deteriorate over time and disappear. At those ranges, I followed the rules...

Dale53

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PETE posted this 04 February 2013

Dale,

Thanks for the info. While waiting for your reply I contacted a guy I know who does a lot of 1000 yd. competition asking him the same question. He does the same as you and says most of the shooters he knows also use .060 wads for the same reason you gave.

Also searched the web for some answers to what diam. should the wads be. That brought back a lot of answers. Most feel you should use nothing less than groove diam. wads. After that it gets complicated with some saying they swear by wads anywhere up to several thousandths over. Others say don't go more than .001” over.

So since I've got your ear what do you feel is the right diam.?

Pete

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Dale53 posted this 04 February 2013

Pete, I had excellent results with the suggested (and furnished sizes produced on Fred Cornell dies). I would give Fred a call (if he is still around) and ask his recommendations. Fred is not only an excellent machinist but I shot with him in Kentucky (Olde Towne Range) and he was a buddy of Paul Mathews. Paul was a “Pretty Good” BPCR competitor:D.

Just for clarity's sake, I used the “standard” dies furnished by Fred. I am away from my shop or I would measure some wads for you.

FWIW Dale53

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PETE posted this 04 February 2013

Dale,

Just tried to call Fred up but no answer.

If I get it right a .38/55 has a nominal groove size of .375". Mine is .381". So was thinking I'd need a specially made one which I've heard will cost an additional $10.

So would appreciate it when you get a chance to measure your “standard” wads what diam. they are.

If your “standard” will work ok in my rifle then if I can't get ahold of Fred I'll just get one from BA. Their web site says they have all the standard sizes in stock so guess Fred's still in business.

Pete

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 February 2013

considering straight cases only,  if a cushioning wad of 0.060 is good ... why isn't 0.2 or 0.4 thick even better ?    ken asks in complete ignorance ... ( g ) .

i think tom grey supposed that the wad rams into the base   of the bullet upon barrel exit ...  and steers it off target ...

also, in progressive ignorance ...how about hollow base wads ( in a straight case )  ...as per a shotshell over powder wad ?

and ...way down the rabbit hole ...how about a  thick wad with a stem ...assembled into the base of a drilled-base bullet.  if a plastic wad wouldn't stay with the bullet, perhaps an aluminum one would ... still cheaper than brass ....

oh wad that i had a rifle so true that wad tell me if these ideas wad work if implemented ...

ken

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Tom Acheson posted this 05 February 2013

If you are really curious go to the Shiloh rifle forum. This subject is wadded to death there.

I haven't seen anyone discuss really thick wads but people do stack several wads on top of each other to achieve a certain loading condition.

When you consider that in the BPCR silhouette game, the rams are at 500-meters and people are claiming 1-11/2 MOA accuracy, iron sights, it would be hard to believe that the bullet and wad separate such that the bullet could mess-up accuracy by impacting the bullet base.

Bullet and wad being pressed against each other during the trip down the barrel makes it hard to picture the wad separating and then catching up to the bullet and hitting it. Once that wad separates it lands on the ground and the bullet is long gone.

IMNSHO

Tom

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PETE posted this 05 February 2013

Ken,

With nothing better to do this afternoon, I'll try and answer some your questions as if you were serious. But wad do I know?

Wad thickness....... if you've ever recovered bullet bases shot with BP you'll notice they are powder peened. Dales experiments found that .060” wads are the thinnest that will protect the base from this. As we know the base should be protected as it's felt that only perfect bases give the best results at the target as Dr. Mann more or less proved in his book a 100 yrs. ago. Some shooters do stack wads but usually only to give added compression.

At this time it is felt that a wad should leave the bullet on exit from the barrel. When developing a load shooters will look for their wads to be within 10 ft. of the muzzle. If further out then there's the chance some are sticking to the bullet. I have found wads stuck in the target at 100 yds. This is not good as you probably guess, and some shooters will put a newspaper wad between the bullet base and the main wad to insure the main wad leaves the bullet at the muzzle.

Why not use thicker wads? Why use more than you need?

As for all those other wads you mention. Again. Why go to all the trouble of concocting something that isn't needed to protect the bullet base when all it does is add a lot of prep work.

Anyway. I hope this is wad you were looking for. :)

Pete

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R Dupraz posted this 05 February 2013

Never having been one to give up a chance to muddy the water, I really don't think that one thickness of wad is any better than another, within limits of course.

I stated somewhere else that I use the .060” poly in a 45x2.4 Sharps only because at the beginning, that's what the rest of the pilgrims were using. They worked well and will continue because I bought a stash of the poly sheets and have to use them up.

However, and there is always a however you know, one 38-55 will put ten shots in 2 1/2” at two hundred with Goex Cartridge and a wad punched from .030” automotive paper gasket material if I pay attention. And I figure that's good enough for me.

When loading, I set the wad on the charge and then compress with a modified seater die. So it helps to have a fairly stiff wad on top for the compression stem to push on. Other wise, I think it's whatever works.

RD

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 05 February 2013

thanks for the input, guys.

i feel an increasing pull towards getting back into pursuing accuracy in cast bullets ...after some earlier burnout ( in those nasty 22 rimfire games .. ) .

besides, my wife keeps bugging me to stop digging thru the garbage to retrieve bean cans to fill with water ... lazy shooting to vaporize easy targets ... such guilty pleasures should not be tolerated !!!

when you central iowa guys get ready to shoot your bpc match, give me a call, i might drive up to watch ... i might even bring along my last 2 ounces  of #80 powder ...to load for a couple nostalgic shots thru your bumble-bee single shots !

thanks again...  ken

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PETE posted this 06 February 2013

Your more than welcome Ken. We always try to help out those poor folks who live on the wrong side of Podunk.

Pete

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Dale53 posted this 06 February 2013

Most black powder cartridge competitors want as much powder as they can get in the case and maintain accuracy. So, the thinnest wad possible that will protect the bullet base is the desired scenerio. By actual bullet recovery tests, a .060” wad is the thinnest that still offers 100% protection of the bullet base.

FWIW Dale53

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 06 February 2013

not quite off subject ... have any of you experienced black powder shooters ever witnessed a ringed chamber ? smokeless powder gases propagates at supersonic velocities ” shock waves ” ...

black powder has a much gentler expansion ... and so might be gentler on our our near-liquid lead bullets .... i am guessing that black powder could be more accurate ? which could mean that early bullet distortion is a biggie ...

speaking of gentle, please be so in your replies ; ... me being mostly a farm boy & all ... ken

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Windflag posted this 27 February 2013

A lot of good information here to absorb..thanks all. But one further question regarding wad use: should they be considered when using with hollow base bullets? I refer specifically to Lee 405 gr 459-405-HB.
Thanks

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Windflag posted this 27 February 2013

A lot of good information here to absorb..thanks all. But one further question regarding wad use: should they be considered when using with hollow base bullets? I refer specifically to Lee 405 gr 459-405-HB.
Thanks

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.22-10-45 posted this 28 February 2013

Hello, Windflag, I don't think I would use wads with h.b...probably get stuck in there..I had to quit twisting and tucking P.P.paper in cupped base of Tom Ballard bullet..lots of fliers. Funny thing about wads..in my .40's, .40-50B.N. & .40-70..both straight & B.N., I use a .030” fibre wad. In a .25-25 Stevens I use a .015” fibre wad. But after extensive accuracy testing, my .38-55 High Wall won't tolerate any kind of wad using either black or smokeless.

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