Accuracy problems in 1903A3

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  • Last Post 06 May 2012
Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 16 April 2012

This spring I decided to try casting and shooting rifle bullets. I have been casting and shooting .38 Special and 44-40's for Cowboy shooting with wheelweights to save money).

I got a Lyman mold 173 grain 311041 anyhow I also bought a couple hundred cast GC bullets from that mold from Moyers Cast bullets. I loaded them with 5744, 4 grains over the starting load in the Lyman book and took them to the range. I took my 03 Sporter with 9/43 barrel adn my Gibbs 03A4 with Criterian barrel, both with 6x scopes. First I shot FMJ Lake City surplus ammo and at 100 yards got 1.25 MOA so was happy with the guns.

I put the cast bullets in and it was like 1.25 FOA (Feet of Angle), I mossed the entire target frame on a bunch of shots. I couldn't get it dialed in and it seemed like everyting was a flyer.

My buddy said I was driving the bullets too fast and he felt they were not engaging the lands and I was basically shooting a musket. He suggested I experiment, 10 rounds to each loading and try the minimum for 5744, also try Unique with a light load, starting just above minimum and it may catch the lands.

I really don't know how to proceed as I am new to this. FMJ shoots the lights out, cast can't hit the side of a barn from inside. The barrels are in good shape, nice rifling.

The cast bullets are sized at .309 adn I believe are hard cast. I will also try some of my WW castings.

Any thoughts?

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RicinYakima posted this 16 April 2012

Bullets are:

  1. Too small (throat size, forget that bore size stuff from two centurys ago)

  2. Too hard (commerial bullets)

  3. Too fast (20.0 grains of 5744 is maximum for accuracy with that light of bullet)

  4. Most likly seated too deep.

FWIW, Ric

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runfiverun posted this 16 April 2012

try them closer to 1900 fps. most 03's seem to like 311 better than 309.

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LWesthoff posted this 16 April 2012

I know that 311041 is supposed to be a good bullet in the '06, but I've had better luck with longer, heavier bullets. I shoot the (Lyman) 311299 and 311284 with pretty good results. I use either lino or a 2-7-91 alloy (doesn't seem to make any difference). For my 2 groove Issue '03-A3 I size .311 and use Javelina (NRA formula) lube. Bullets are seated out to just touch the lands. I use 28 Gr. Varget behind the 311299 bullet, and 27 gr. H4895 for the 311284 bullet.

At the CBA Match at Paul Bunyan yesterday, I averaged 2.083” for four 5 round targets at 100 yds, and 5.623” for two 10 round targets at 200 yds. Issue class rifle; issue iron sights.

Every rifle is a little different, but I'd suggest you try either of those loads and then go from there to find out what YOUR rifle likes. Good luck.

Wes

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onondaga posted this 16 April 2012

.309 is likely too small. Start at the beginning. Just jumping in and shooting cast from an 03 gets about what you got.

SLUG YOUR BORE!!!

If you need tips to do this easily just ask.

Mine slugged at .3085” G to G.  I shoot bullets .3120". I am new with this rifle also and shooting with the peep sight, no scope. My last range trip I finally got groups 1 inch at 50 yards but my grandson beat me with the same load/same rifle and shot a couple 1/2 inch five shot groups....That was a first. For some reason he just really likes the Military peep sight.

I use bullets from a Lee C-309-170-FN. The mold is honed out so the bearing bands on cast bullets drop at .3125". I size/check them at 3120"  I Also use collet neck sizing die back jacked and very light arm push sizing so the brass does not swage my nice oversize bullets when seating bullets.. I used Alliant Rel 22 at 41.0 grains to get about 2,000 fps per the Lee 2nd Edition manual. No filler in that load and ignition of the slow powder is clean and complete . It is over an 80% density load, that is why I did not use filler.  I use Aluminum gas checks and Tumble Lube once before sizing/ checking and twice after with 45:45:10 Recluse tumble lube. I seat the bullets to engage the lands .005"

I also tried an equal velocity load with H4895. I got equal accuracy but that powder is much less bulky and the load required Dacron filler for me to believe I would get consistent ignition. I prefer not to use filler unless the loading density is obviously low.

This is finally working for me after a lot of wasted higher velocity loads that grouped poorly.

I didn't do any shooting with the rifle until I slugged the bore first and determined the bullet size that I wanted .003” or so over G to G. Actually I am shooting the same bullet that I cast and size for a 7.62X39 single shot rifle I have.

Gary

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Michael K posted this 16 April 2012

Last fall I took the recommendation of several members here and loaded up several different bullets from 150gr up to 210grs behind 16gr of 2400 in my 06. Most were sized .309, however I did try the 311284 at .311 as well. At the end of the day the .311 dia 311284 shot the best. Velocity ran from 1400ish w/ the heavier slugs up to slightly over 1600 with the 150s. 5 shot groups ran from 2 to 2.5 moa. take out a flyer and some were close to half that size. Most bullet types were seated so they were .035-.040 into the lands, one type was just of by about .010 and the other .040, those seated into the lands shoot substantially better.

A couple of years ago I tried the 311041 cast from a 9:1 WW:lino alloy, LBT blue, Horn GCs, sized to .309 using 26, 27, 28, and 29 grs of 5744 from my 03-A3. Ave vels were 1937, 2000, 2087, and 2203 respectively. Of the lot, 29grs gave the best 5 shot group at 1.55” at 100yds. COL was 3.185", putting them about .060 into the lands.

From what I read and later tried on a limited basis, future load work will find me sizing where possible to .311 to start.

Good luck, hope this helps.

Michael.

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onondaga posted this 16 April 2012

Here is a decent video on how to slug a bore: <url=

I would stress very good cleaning first, then heavily greasing the bore and the ball. oo buckshot works nice and accurately for slugging 30 cal rifles. I start the ball with a leather mallet, then tap a 2 inch long copper rod. then I tap a one piece aluminum cleaning rod to get the ball out the chamber.  I measure with a Starrett micrometer. Gary

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.22-10-45 posted this 16 April 2012

Hello, Ben Cartwright SASS. Well your post explains why no one has aswered my post on bore cleaning for cast bullet use..You said you fired FMJ Lake City..then started shooting the cast. No one has suggested that copper fouling needs to be removed from bores before cast will shoot accurately.

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onondaga posted this 16 April 2012

22-10-45:

The bore cleaning is relevant to bore condition. Some members here swear by shooting jacketed bullets to clean out lead and shooting lead to clean out copper!!! Somehow, this does work very well for some shooters.

If your bore is slick and your bullets fit tight with the right alloy, you can stop bore cleaning altogether except when you put the firearm in storage over a season. Lead is actually a lubricious metal. and with a good fit there is no leading at all and the bullets clean out the powder fouling and keep your bore shiny.

Rough bores can be a nightmare until you polish or even hone them if necessary.

My 1903A3 bore is mirror shiny and slick and stays that way by itself. All I do to the bore is pull a Hoppe's bore snake through once after a day of shooting and take a good look. Never needed a second pull. I will oil it after Deer season ends around Christmas time for the winter. I do pull down the bolt, clean and lube the action after every range session, but I don't work on the bore.

Gary

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linoww posted this 16 April 2012

what Ricinyakima Said.100%

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 16 April 2012

You can tell I am new to this stuff, as I said I have loaded for my 38 specials for Cowboy, up close and up to 50 yards with a lever action, just hitting a 8 inch plate. I thought that shooting Cast in the 06 would be the same as FMJ you just pick a bullet and a powder charge and you get good accuracy. WOW have I had an awakening!

I will continue to shoot the Military Postal Season match, and will get last place but will have fun and a starting point for my quest to get on paper and get good groups. I have loaded and shot a total of 100 rounds of cast rifle bullets in my life, so I have a ways to go but I won't get discouraged!

I will also start to look at my pistol loads closer as well!

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 06 May 2012

I think I have found at least one load the 03A3 Sporter 30.06 likes, 15.4 grains of unique pushing a 173 grain flat point cast bullet.'

I am using a Bausch and Lomb 6x (no zoom) scope.

This is a 1 1/2 inch group. at 100 yards

the first 4 shots were now and right and about 3/4 inch could be covered by a quarter, but then I got nervous and threw the next two in the bull which means my point of aim was about 11 o'clock on the 10 ring.

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