Match loads; measure or weigh?

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  • Last Post 06 November 2011
LWesthoff posted this 13 October 2011

I came into the cast bullet competition game from Bullseye Pistol (got too old and shaky to be competitive any more), not from jacketed bullet benchrest competition.  When I started trying to load match quality rifle ammo, I sort of automatically figured I should weigh every charge.  However, reading stuff about jacketed bullet B.R. competition, I get the impression that those guys gave up weighing each charge years ago. They weigh their bullets; they weigh and uniform their cases (some of them even use the same few cases for the entire match), and for all I know they may even weigh their primers, but they just THROW their powder charges!  I just finished reading “THE ACCURATE RIFLE” by Warren Page, and he flat out stated that weighing each charge was a waste of time!

I'd like to hear from some of you guys who shoot cast bullet bench rest competition, and do it well enough to win now and then, regarding whether you weigh or throw your powder charges.  Until then, I'm going to be anal enough to keep on weighing every charge, but maybe you can change my mind...........maybe.

Wes

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6pt-sika posted this 13 October 2011

The majority of my loading is for hunting guns and I tend to shoot them alot throughout the year . And thats for both cast and jacketed bullet rifles . I have however been working with a hunting rifle for the CBA Hunting Rifle Class .

 

Anyway for ALL my hunting , test or target loads I meter the powder to about half a grain under what I want and pour it in the pan of my balance scale and then I trickle in the rest . All I use is a old RCBS Uniflow measure and a Lyman 505 balance .

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billwnr posted this 13 October 2011

Wes,

You know me and my shooting. I throw mine for both the .30BR and for the .30/06.

Bill

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RicinYakima posted this 13 October 2011

Wes,

For match loads I volume meter 2400 powder, and weight when I use SR4759. I am using an old Redding that I bushed for a long narrow chamber that will do +/- 0.1 grain with 2400 over several hundred charges.

I have a couple of measures that will get close to +/- 0.3 grains with SR4759, but none that will not bridge with powder in the discharge port once every 50 to 60 charges. The B&M can get down to +/- 0.3 but is slower than trickling with from an older RCBS that I can set to throw 0 to minus 0.5 grains.

FWIW, Ric

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CB posted this 14 October 2011

Like Ric, I weigh powders that do not throw well. A couple comments I heard over the years from 30BR competitors is that powder variation of course would not affect the larger capacity cases such as the 308 Win. and the 30-06. Through my own experience, I find powder weight variation to be more critical when the volume of empty space is greater in larger cases. Not a point of argument, just what I do for optimum competition accuracy......Dan

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6pt-sika posted this 14 October 2011

Dan Willems wrote: Like Ric, I weigh powders that do not throw well. A couple comments I heard over the years from 30BR competitors is that powder variation of course would not affect the larger capacity cases such as the 308 Win. and the 30-06. Through my own experience, I find powder weight variation to be more critical when the volume of empty space is greater in larger cases. Not a point of argument, just what I do for optimum competition accuracy......Dan

I never knock anyone for their own preferred method !

 

However I weigh rather large charges of H322 or IMR8208 for my 444's and both those powders meter well !

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Uncle Russ posted this 05 November 2011

Factory ammo is loaded by volume not by weight. Even the finest match ammo the big boys use. When I used to shoot High Power I weighed charges until the State Champ at the time said he would rather “Spend the time shooting rather then weighing charges". I agreed and unless I am working up critical test loads I adjust my Redding Benchrest measure and go for it! I am not a good enough shot to tell the difference. I have never looked back.

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PETE posted this 05 November 2011

Actually I do both. For ASSRA competition I throw charges at the bench, for breechseating, with my Harrel measure. But that's with powders that meter well. AA#9, 4227, H110, etc. For CBA Postal competition, and other fixed match ammo I'll also just throw the charges from a good measure. But if I use powders like 4759 I'll throw a slightly lite charge out in a pan aand trickle to desired wgt.

Pete

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JSH posted this 05 November 2011

Here at home I know a lot of guys that use progressives and swear by them. I myself dislike and dis trust a progressive for true match ammo. I want the very best I can get, a progressive never would pass what I expected. However with that being said, I use Hornadys progressive press to prep cases and seat bullets. I use it somthing like a progressive turret press. I still throw 95% of my loads with a B&M measure, I do use a Redding BR3 but have found it will bridge on large stick powder. The other 5% are thrown with some type of auto measure, that I trust. Also I still seat ALL primers by hand no matter what they are for. As to weighing charges. I weigh every 5-10 just to check myself as well as the machine. I can count on one hand how many misfires I have had in the last twenty years of rolling my own. I have seen guys show up to a match, boom, boom, click????, boom, bang or pop???. Then they proceed to inform me of how great and wonderfull their progressive machine is.

A gent that I highly respect phrased it somthing like this, “volume is volume and volume stays the same, weights will vary with the seasons in different parts of the country according to humidity and heat". As to regaurds of my B&M powder measure and the remark above from my friend. My B&M measure came in the box with the old chart. I was fooling with H335. I adjusted the drop tube for said charge and went with it on a few rounds. Then I got my other loads that were weighed charges. The loads shot to a smidge different POI, but both grouped as well as the other. Then we have the other issue of the digital age, electronic scales. I don't like things with batteries or that run off of a power source. I see no right or wrong to weighing or throwing charges. The bottom line is being consistant at one or the other or both. You can do it wrong in some folks eyes, but do it wrong the same way every time. jeff

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LWesthoff posted this 05 November 2011

First, I want to thank all you guys for your replies. While I don't disagree with any of you, I think I've made my decision.

I compete in Production Rifle (Savage .308W Mod.12) and Issue Military Rifle ('03-A3) classes. I load with and OLD Herter single station C press. After wearing out a couple of RCBS hand-operated (squeeze type) primer seaters I bought a Lyman Ram Prime die and now I can seat all my primers to a proper, consistent depth. My powder charges are thrown from an OLD Herter powder measure - but I've been using it for over 40 years, and with the powders I generally use (Varget, IMR4895 and H4895) it will throw almost all my charges within 0.1 grain. I accept my target weight plus 0.1 minus 0. I weigh every charge on a PACT BBK 2 scale. While I'm pretty well convinced the weighing is NOT necessary, I'm going to keep on weighing every charge, because it really doesn't take a heck of a lot more time, AND IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER ABOUT MY LOADS.

I learned a long time ago, shooting Bullseye Pistol competition, that once you've learned the basics, most of the rest of it is up there between your ears.  I think Bench Rest rifle requires a little more attention to technique, but that area between your ears is still pretty important.

Thanks again.

Wes

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RicinYakima posted this 06 November 2011

LWesthoff wrote:  I'm going to keep on weighing every charge, because it really doesn't take a heck of a lot more time, AND IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER ABOUT MY LOADS.

I learned a long time ago, shooting Bullseye Pistol competition, that once you've learned the basics, most of the rest of it is up there between your ears.  I think Bench Rest rifle requires a little more attention to technique, but that area between your ears is still pretty important.

Thanks again.

Wes

Wes, you are a very wise man. Scores would go up and groups would get smaller if everyone read your answer above. I hope they don't.

Ric

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Uncle Russ posted this 06 November 2011

Not to disagree with my mentor. But NOT a one of you mentioned one thing. THE KNOWN. Where are your scale weight checks? Same charge, two scales, each show a different weight. Now which do we go with? I use the one that consistantly weighed my check weights with readings to match their identified weight. Do your scales really weigh accuratly? Digital or mechanical, especially digital ones need to be watched.

When you look at a clock you know what time it is.

Then you glance at your watch, you are not sure any more!

                     :thinking:

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Uncle Russ posted this 06 November 2011

Not to disagree with my mentor. But NOT a one of you mentioned one thing. THE KNOWN. Where are your scale weight checks? Same charge, two scales, each show a different weight. Now which do we go with? I use the one that consistantly weighed my check weights with readings to match their identified weight. Do your scales really weigh accuratly? Digital or mechanical, especially digital ones need to be watched.

When you look at a clock you know what time it is.

Then you glance at your watch, you are not sure any more!

                     :thinking:

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LWesthoff posted this 06 November 2011

O.K. - re the scale discipline: I calibrate my PACT scale before every weighing/loading session, at 0, 20, 30 and 50 grams. Then I put the scale pan on the platen and re-zero. THEN I check weigh with the 20 gram check weight (should weigh at 308.6 gr.). When I'm done loading powder in all the cases in the block, I re-weigh the first charge, to make sure the scale hasn't wandered off somehow. Then I use the drafting pencil (pointy end up) to check every case against a double or missed charge.

Told you I was a little bit anal....but so far, Ive never had a zinger out somewhere in the 7 ring that I could blame on anything but my poor holding! (Or maybe the wind - but then, I should have waited it out.)

Wes

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tturner53 posted this 06 November 2011

For what it's worth-I shot in the Military Rifle National Tournament a couple years ago using ammo loaded with scooped powder charges, as in Lee scoops. I'm not a great shot, especially over two days of hard holding. The gun was a Russian 91/30 (SA). I managed to not be DFL. My point is there's a lot of things that are more influential on the results than a tiny fraction of a grain difference in powder charges. Maybe at the upper level of BR it'd be a big deal. Besides, my old Hornady Pacific powder measure seized up.

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