30/30 accuracy woes - help

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squibload posted this 30 March 2011

I am a newbie to the forum but have cast pistol bullets for ages with good results and recently got serious about casting for rifles.  Good results with the Lee .311/.312 RN 180gr in SMLEs and Moisin Nagents.  I have a bunch or 30/30s - Win Mod 94s and Marlin 1936 and 336s - no microgrooves.  Bought a Lee no. 90368.  It casts well and produces a 170 gr FN measuring a consistent .308.5.  I cast up a bunch with a medium/soft alloy and ran them through a .309 lubrisizer - so far so good.  Loaded up several hundred with 16gr of 2400 for a starter load.

Took all my 30/30s down to my range and after 3 frustrating days with 6 rifles produced groups at 50yds ranging from 4 to 7 inches!!! No evidence of stripping or tipping.  Where did I go wrong?   Am considering another go with AA 5744 and dropping the bullets in cold water to harden them.  Interesting that a Winchester pre- 64 Mod 94 and a NRA Comemorative 94 will not chamber without jamming hard into the rifling - even if loaded short over the front driving band?

I know some don't like the inexpensive Lee moulds but I have had good luck with them and the bullet noted above seems to be more or less correct. I am stumped and would like some comments to get me out of this hole.  Thanks: Squibload

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Fred_Dwyer posted this 30 March 2011

squibload wrote:  Interesting that a Winchester pre- 64 Mod 94 and a NRA Comemorative 94 will not chamber without jamming hard into the rifling - even if loaded short over the front driving band? My '94 is like that, rifling cuts about 1/8 inch into the nose and bullet slides about 1/4 inch into the case. I'm using the Lyman 291 mold, a round nose version of what you have there; I'm switching to the 041 Lyman, it has some Ogive before the flat point and should just kiss the rifling. Didn't get out to try them today because weather turned to plop. Even with the bullet jamming I was getting 3 inches @ 50 yards with the OEM “V” sights. Pretty good considering my eyes are ferpoop.

I'd slug the barrel(s) and see if the 308.5 is fitting snugly enough. My grooves are 309 and I size to 310.

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JetMech posted this 31 March 2011

First thing I'd do is slug the bores of all your rifles. Pick one with the tightest bore. A .3085 bullet is marginal as far as diameter. If you have no stripping or leading, I'd soften the alloy by about 2 BHN then go from there, FWIW.

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Mike H posted this 31 March 2011

I do not own a 30-30, so have no experience apart from limited use of a Lee 113 gr flat nose many years ago, which worked well. To me, 16grs of 2400, is a bit high to start with,that amount seems to be a 30-06 load, I would try 12 grs to start.

Ed Harris has written about the throats of 30-30s needing adjusting to get the best out of them with cast bullets. Sorry I cant offer much help. The only other thing would be to try some other bullets.

Mike.

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rhouser posted this 01 April 2011

I had been fighting with my 336 30-30 mg for two years. It got to the point where I was going to quit.

I recently bought a ranchdog TLC311-165-RF and .a lee 310 pass through sizer. My groups went from the 5-7 inch random shot groups to 3 different 3/4 inch 5 shot groups at 50 with the first 15 bullets fired.

Among other things, I think the RD bullet has more bearing surface ahead of the driving bands that is greater than 308 after sizing. I really havn't got a clue WHY this bullet works so well. For me it just does. thanks rc

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Fred_Dwyer posted this 06 April 2011

Wanted to give some feedback now that I have tried a few boxes of the 311041 bullets. First, there's no rifling contact and no setting the slug back into the case. I haven't really dialed in the accuracy load yet, but just throwing some lead out there with loads from 18.5 to 27.5 gr. of IMR 4895 I'm getting 3 inch groups. Just got some 3031 and am now gonna sit down and dial it in. If you want, next time I'm casting I can throw an extra 20 and send them to you, drop me a private message with your address if you you'd like to try a few.

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shastaboat posted this 07 April 2011

I agree that a .310 sized bullet worked best for me and I get 2” groups from My Marlin 336 30-30 over 20 grains of 2400 at 2000 fps chronoed. I'm shooting WW and Lyman 31141 which casts for me at 176 grains.

Because I said so!

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JSH posted this 09 April 2011

I forget the # of the lee mold I am using but think it clones the 31141 with a round nose. I just picked a start load for some milsurp AA 2520, 25.0 grains. It shot way better than I expected to be honest. I know a lot of folks have had good to excellent results with 2400 in rifle cartridges, I never had anything I was happy with. I myself prefer SR 4759 and AA5744 in a majority of rifles. I find myself going to standard rifle powders in bottle neck cases more and more. I use a start load and find velocities fall right into where I want them too, in order to have good speed and accuracy out to 200M for the game I play here at home on a monthly basis. jeff

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Mnshooter posted this 20 April 2011

I have had very good results and have shot a few deer with the Lee 312 185 bullet sized to 310. I also have a Marlin with Ballard rifling. In Winchesters I ahve also used cast and had good luck with the Lee 150 FN for the 30-30. Generally I have found if the 30-30 does not shoot it is a sizing problem as they are about the easiest cartridge to accurately handle cast. Powders I ahve found seem to be on the fast burning side like 4198 and Re7.

DP

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tturner53 posted this 20 April 2011

The trouble with the Lee molds is they very often have undersize noses on the bore riding designs. There's ways around that but still...I do get very good use out of many of my Lee molds, especially the 6 cavs. I read you could enlarge an aluminium mold by putting something like Draino in it and letting it eat away. Don't remember the particulars, but my Lee 90368 might be a good candidate for that experiment. Lymans have had the same problem before, .298-.299 noses on bore riders. It occurred to me maybe they were thinking the noses would bump up on firing? I'm experimenting with a bumped nose Lee .309-200R in a 30-30 for silhouette, sort of a Frank Marshall 311284 deal but lighter. Also had to resort to beagling a NOE 316299 for a Savage No 4 with a .306/.318 barrel. Range tests in a couple days.

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cityboy posted this 20 April 2011

I got good results with 25 grains of H4895 and the 200 gr Lee slug in a 30-30 built on a M98 action.

Jim

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mtn_runner posted this 20 June 2011

Hi - a suggestion to squibload and a question for all:

I've had similar challenges trying to get the best out of a 1967 M94 Canadian Centenial rifle with a 26” barrel (and do it economically - otherwise known as being cheap).

Best result for me so far is:

WW Cases trimmed to 2.03"

31 grain of surplus IMR7383 powder - this is 83% of a full case load of 36.2 grains of 7383.  Powder charge is slightly compressed.

Winchester large rifle magnum primer

CBE 308-195 FNGC mold (comes out at 192grains using WW, water quenched, gas check and lube).  Sized to .309

Overall cartridge length of 2.50"

These consistenly produce 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inch groups at 50 yds.  I have a Marbles tang mounted peep site.

Over 15 rounds, these chronograph on average at 1,885 fps at 15ft in front of the muzzle

Like squibload, I have to sqeeze hard on the lever to get the rounds to fully chamber.

Now the question - I've read and re-read Mr. Harris's and Mr. Marshall's articles in the FS on rethoating the barrel to reduce the leade angle as a way to extract more accuray out of lever guns - how many of you have tried this?  From those of you who have, how difficult is it? (alternatively, how easy is it to wreck your rifle in the effort?).  I have a couple of M94's - the 30-30 and a 44mag that I would like to try this on, and if it works, maybe move up to my M71 to see if I can make it do better.

Appreciate any comments

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giorgio de galleani posted this 20 June 2011

I've dunit.

I passed a Clymer standard throater,turning it by hand,in my Pedersoli Rolling Block in 30-30caliber. Go slowly  clean the tool very often,and use plenty of WD 40 or any oil you like.

 

Just to be able to chamber an old NEI  bullet with large nose and gascheck shank removed.,that Ed Harris gave to me.I remember,that it was a 200 grains design by the late Mr. Sinclair(if my memory serves me)

Lever action repeaters may be more difficult to work on.

I did not have to take down the barrel from the  R B action.

I remember the piece shot decent groups at 200 meters with tang sight.

I'll take some pictures to morrow and post them.

 

  

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Notlwonk posted this 21 June 2011

My load for an 85 year old M1894 rifle ( 26” bbl ) is Lyman 311467 cast using a 15 bnh alloy, sized .310 with 24.5 grains of powder pulled from LC69 machine gun ammo. This powder is somewhat faster than 4895. I don't have a chrono but it's on the warm side. (Recoil less snappy than Win. factory ammo.) The overall length is 2.695, just short enough to extract a loaded cartridge from the chamber.

 Haven't tried it in the magazine and I doubt that it would feed.This load is gives a group of under 2” at 100 yds. Rifle is set up with original front post and an older Lyman tang sight. As I recall, the throat was opened a little.

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RicinYakima posted this 21 June 2011

I've worked on the leade of my Savage 99 TD in 30 WCF, and it helped some with cast bullets, maybe 25% better groups. Not great, but it helped with every cast bullet I've tried.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 01 July 2011

Here are  at left a 30-30 cartridge, with the ranchdog 30 cal bullet,that fed and shot well in a Marlin microgroove carbine ,with original leade.If it aint broken ,I do not fix it.

The other is a Sinclair bullet by Nei ,sans gas check shank,that shoots well in my Pedersoli rolling block replica .It was not closing the action with such a long nosed bullet.

I reamed the neck by hand myself,with a Clymer reamer, and its long handle ,just taking off the stock,leaving  the barrel in the action.

Now I have a 35 rem Marlin 336 and always the relative 195 gr. ranchdog mould ,that could take advantage from a little  throat reaming.I have to seat them a little too much deep in the case.

I have a pistol 357 neck reamer ,I must study if it can fit the 357 rifle bore,and most important it can be used without  taking down the barrel from the action.

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Chargar posted this 01 September 2011

I have a number of rifles in 30-30, both Winchester, Marlin and Savage and have never had a problem getting good cast bullet accuracy with any.

First of all, I don't do Lee molds, and .3085 bullets are probably your problem. Could also be the alloy, I don't know what medium-soft means. Also I don't know if that is a plain base or gas check design.

I would suggest getting another mold that would allow a .310 or .311 of good design and fit. I suspect your problems would go away.

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adrians posted this 02 September 2011

ideal/lyman 308291(311291) or 31141 both do good in my win 30-30 or for that matter all my 30 cals     

as charger and others mention you need .310...311, both the above do it for me.:hunt::taz::riflebr:

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galenaholic posted this 02 September 2011

At .3085", I think your bullet is too small. Stick the nose of the bullet into the muzzle. There should either be a snug fit or the lands slightly engrave the rifl ing. Any slop or wiggle is bad news. The driving bands should be .310". That sizing has worked for me in ever 30 aliber rifle I've shot cast bullets. Bullets I've worked with in the 30-30 are the Lyman #311291 which has been superb in every rifle I've use it, ranging from a 94 Winchester carbine made in 1911 with a fairly cruddy bore to a late mosdel M94 made in 1981. Other 30-30's I shot with that bullet are a couple of Winchester M64sand a Winchester M54 with is close to MOA with that bullet. Loaded to decent velocity, it has accounted for 15 deer over the years.

The next bullet is the Lyman #31141/311041. I have two Lyan molds for that bullet and a clone by NEI and not a single one of those molds have shot anywaher near a usable group in any of the rifles.

The RCBS #30-180-FN casts out at 190 gr. in my alloy and is decently accurate in my 30-30's. So far, I've used it on two deer and it's a real killer. The load duplicates the old .303 Savage, a round that just was not as popular as the 30-30 Dunno about the others but Remington loaded a 180 gr. bullet in the Savage round and Winchester the 190 gr. Silvertip. I can load the RCBS bullet to the original 1950 FPS of the .303 Savage. Methinks you will find that a properly nose fitting #311291 sized to .310” in diameter will prbably go quite a long way toward getting you decent accuracy. it was the easiest one for me to get shoot. Paul B.

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Gunner220 posted this 03 September 2011

As a lead bullet plinker in a Marlin 336. I have had excellent results with Magnus 165 FP, sized .309 with 7.5 grains of 3N37 and CCI LR primers. Seven shots will go into an inch @25 yds.

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res45 posted this 06 September 2011

I agree with all the above post that the bullet is probably undersized. I have the same Lee mold and my bullets drop at .310 using WW or Lead/Tin alloy.

I get great results with both non GC plinking loads a well as GC full house hunting loads out of my old Sav. 170B pump gun. I run them through the Lee .310 sizer.

'Artisan' in Lead, Brass & Powder.

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