.45 Colt New Service DA Model of 1909

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  • Last Post 05 November 2011
Ed Harris posted this 26 January 2011

I recently found and picked up one of these in 44,XXX range made in 1911, which had been reblued, so I got it cheap.  Shootable bore, good mechanical shape, required no gunsmithing.  Have not shot it yet.  Still have to load ammo.

Got sticker shock looking at factory stuff so will use range pickup brass, and bullets I already use in my Ruger Old Army.  Chamber throats measure .456 so “fat” bullets are called for and these are...

I see that the Alliant web site shows 7 grs. of Bullseye or 15.4 grs. of #2400 for standard pressure with 250-gr. Speer SWC lead bullet.

Never tried #2400 in .45 Colt, but may reduce a bit to an even 15 grs. and this a try, along with 6.0 to 6.5 grs. of Bullseye which I had figured on.

Curious as to what other people are shooting in their Indiana Jones blasters.  I use alot of the 230-gr. Saeco #954 Cowboy bullets in .45 ACP, would be nice if they worked in this too.

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 26 January 2011

My records from the 1980's, when I had a Model 1909, shows that I used 6.0 grains of Bullseye, 6.5 grains of Red Dot and 7.5 grains of Unique with the Lyman 452460 200 grain bullets sized .454. Under the Keith 454424 I used 17.5 grains of 2400, but it wasn't a good load. Even pointing the muzzle up, unburned powder would work under the star and not let the cylinder close. HTH, Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 26 January 2011

Ric,

Was that older Hercules #2400 or current Alliant product?

Have located one of the New England Firearms CR-45LC Cowboy single-shot carbines and thought it would make a nice woods combo. Was figuring the #2400 load should give a little more velocity in 20 inch barrel, but still give safe standard pressure for revolver use.

I use similar light charges with 260-gr. lead in my .44 Magnum revolver for a reduced power load and it burns OK. Of course pressure is lower in the .45 and expansion ratio less favorable, will have to see if it works.

Quiet subsonic thumper load with Bullseye may be best best anyway, but since Alliant has a published, tested load with #2400 will probably try a few anyway...

Thx. Will post an update with some photos when I've had a chance to shoot it some.

CR-45LC Chambered for the 45 Colt, this compact rifle is an ideal extended-range companion to a cowboy-style sidearm. It's equipped with all the aforementioned aesthetically pleasing attributes, plus a 20” barrel for quick handling with carbine-style open sights.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Fg1 posted this 26 January 2011

My SAA Uberti's do very good with 5.5 grs Titegroup and 255gr Lee cast approx Lyman #2. The Lyman old Keith style 260 gr. also works well with same load. Easy silver dollar groups at 25 yds shooting offhand . Both guns are shorter barrels 4.75” and 5.5” . Very pleasant to shoot too.

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RicinYakima posted this 26 January 2011

Ed,

That was with the old Hercules powder that left the white unburned grains. The new faster burning 2400 may be different.

I bought the first deluxe NEF 45 Colt carbine I found. It lives under the back seat of the pick-up. It has a standard load of 8.0 grains of SR7625, a hot Ruger load, with the new Lyman 452424 sized .452". I tried scoping the rifle, but went back to the open sights. I tried working with 457191, 300 grains, with IMR 4227 and got up to 1450 f/s, but it was never as accurate as the SWC.

Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 26 January 2011

Ric,

I'll give both Bullseye and #2400 a try with 230 and 250 lead and see how it goes. Will probably just keep iron sights on it, though may drill and tap for a peep sight like the XS or Williams.

See it as a 50-yard woods gun that should be a little easier to hit with than revolver. Don't plan to load it up, but would like to find a standard pressure load which works well in the 5-1/2 inch New Service and the NEF 20 incher. Won't be as quiet as a long barrel blooper, but should be mild enough in report and have enough energy to be usefull and a good penetrator.

What sort of iron sight groups you get with yours at 50 yards? 

Under 3 inches I hope?

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Dale53 posted this 26 January 2011

Ed, I have had excellent results in the .45 Colt with the Lyman 452664. I have mostly used this is a .45 Bisley Vaquero with black powder (lubed with home made Emmert's lube). I was competing in black powder cartridge matches with side pistol matches. The matches required fixed sights and all black (or Pyrodex). The matches were both novelty silhouettes and NRA score matches. My revolver was regulated properly right out of the box - dead on at 25 yards. The fixed sights on Ruger were excellent for their type (nice large square notch with a wide front sight) with a good sight picture.

At any rate, using enough Unique to get to standard .45 Factory velocity (8.0 grs) that also shot to the sights. So, I had a triple threat handgun - black powder matches, smokeless for practice and also made a great general purpose handgun in the field. Your New Service should also fill the bill for those purposes.

However, if I were going that same route today, I would probably go with Titegroup due to it's lack of position sensitivity and cleaner burning with excellent measuring through most any powder measure. Of course, I would still load only to factory levels in deference to your revolver's age (of course, you already know all of that:D.

The point of all this is to state that the Lyman 452664 RF Cowboy bullet shoots extremely well with both black and smokeless powder (using the correct lube for the purpose) and should also function well in the lever actions (something I didn't find with the various Keith bullets). The Keith style bullets have always been my preference in handguns used in the field but they do not feed well in the lever actions. The relatively new Lyman 452664 should do fine in both uses. It has a large enough meplat to give good results on live targets while the “round” of the “round flat” should feed well.

FWIW Dale53

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RicinYakima posted this 26 January 2011

The NEF has been an interesting project for me. I was looking for a big bore thumper with low noise and that lead me down the 300 grain bullet trail. The problem was that bullet strike was 10 inches high over the 250 grain bullet at 50 yards and 14” high at 100. Accuracy was never very good with the 300 grain bullet, but I had to size them down from .459” to .454” to get them into the tight chamber (throat is exactly .451” on mine). Six inches was the best at 100 yards.

The only other 45 Colt I have is an old model Ruger BH, and the NEF has always shot the BH's 8.0 grains of SR7624 well, less than 2” at 50 and 4” at 100 from a bench.

When I first got it, I put a Lyman Alaskan on it, one of my favorite scopes, to do load development work. But frankly it is worth too much money to leave on a rifle that lives in a truck. Then I bought a Williams peep made for the NEF's. The problem is that there is not enough adjustment range to sight in with both the 250 and 300 grain bullets. Also, that barrel combination does not have any front sights now made that are the right height. If you check the Greybread's Outdoors site, they have a lot of NEF shooters, and they have not found a good combination for Williams and the 45 Colt carbine as far as the front sight higth is concerned. Now it just has a Lyman flat topped flip up leaf sight that is far enough forward that I can see it.

I am happy with the rifle now, lots of thump, quiet with the sub-sonic SR7625 load, and is easy to hit with within 100 yards. In fact, when I need more power than one of my bunny guns, this is the rifle rather than the 357 Martini. The 357 is much louder even with a 6 inch longer barrel. If more is needed from a cast bullet rifle, than there is  the 358 Norma '03 Springfield that is good for 250 yards.

Dale53,

My friends with 45 lever guns have nothing but good things to say about the new Lyman 452664,too.

Ric

 

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tturner53 posted this 26 January 2011

Nice score Ed, on both guns. Sounds like fun. I'm looking forward to a picture. Have you slugged the carbine yet? I'm curious what the measurements are and the twist. I have an H&R 45-70 that I'd like to load down to .45 Colt levels, for plinking. It's a beast with full loads, but is a good gun.  EDIT: Back when I had a Ruger #3 45-70 I tried various pistol bullets in it with no luck, including the Lee ROA bullet.

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Ed Harris posted this 28 January 2011

Edited picture into first post.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Dale53 posted this 29 January 2011

Ed; When I was a teenager, my father had a 1917 Colt (.45 ACP). It had a barrel that had suffered from pitting from corrosive hard ball ammo. I believe it cost him $15.00-$20.00. It did not shoot in a satisfactory manner. Joe Lamping, a nationally known gunsmith of the time from Cincinnati, Ohio, fitted a beautiful solidd ribbed barrel. Joe even made his own barrels for rifles and handguns, so he was quite a gunsmith.

At any rate, after the pistol was rebarreled it shot extremely well. I never cottoned to the New Service or Colt 1917's because of their issue grips. They never felt comfortable to me (this was before Pachmayr grips about 1953, as I remember. At any rate, my father sold the revolver to a customer (we had a hardware and appliance repair store). I have often wondered how that revolver would do with a set of Packmayr grips. I suspicion is it would have stayed here.

It was a finely made revolver and I LOVE .45 ACP revolvers to this day (I own a pair of S&W 625's and shoot them about 5000-7500 rounds per year).

You have reason to be a happy owner...

Dale53

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Ed Harris posted this 10 February 2011

First Range Report...Of “The Beast"

First trial last week firing out the back door during a snowstorm, at a paper plate stapled to a pine tree, out about 20 yards. Revolver went bang six out of six times, six hits on the plate firing offhand. Winchester 250-gr. Cowboy loads from Sportsmans Guide hit more or less to sights, eyeballed, not measured about a 3” group, 4 shots within about 2 inches, last shot was low, was pilot error. So OK for conditions.  Service grade accuracy.

Last night Dick Nearing and I both fired what Carlini has dubbed "the Beast" the two of us alternating groups between Dicks rack grade M1911 firing GI hardball as a sanity check, compared to Winchester Cowboy loads in the M1909. Dark indoor range at 20 yards. Rack grade M1911A1 firing mixed lots of odds and ends of GI Ball ammo we had hanging around, some dating back to WWII corrosive, and some newer WCC stuff, burned it all up, confirmed that  3 inches at 20 yards with an issue M1911A1 is still good benchmark. We sort of knew that.

Attempting to use 6:00 hold with the mild Winchester Cowboy loads the gun shot low on the paper below the bull.  This stuff is a mouse-fart load compared to the factory .45 Colt loads of my youth which would put lead in your pencil.  Best sight picture with the M1909 .45 DA turned out to be to center bull of 20 yard Standard American bullseye target into the U notch and center tiny front sight in the black. Group is centered and holds the black. Average extreme spead eyeballed about 3 inches off handbags. Sights are hard to see. Now I got brass to reload.

Did try six shots only reloading the six cases I emptied firing out the back door, Saeco 230-gr. flat-nose, #954 Cowboy bullet, as-cast, unsized, tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox, 16 grs. #2400:

BOOM~!, Crack$#!@~, Plooopp....; WHAM~!, Phuuuuuuuuuuuudd..  Pow!

VERY erratic. No more #2400 in the revolver, jams the action up from too much unburned powder. Group (eyeballed, not measured, but saved for posterity so can do later) about 2-1/2” in spite of the varied reports. 

From here on I will shoot Bullseye powder only in the revolver.  Any further trials of #2400 in the .45 Colt will be in dedicated “Buffalo Loads” intended for RIFLE USE ONLY, with the NEI 250-grain bullet.  This bullet has a distinctly different shape from #954, particularly since I had Erik at http://www.hollowpointmold.com>http://www.hollowpointmold.com convert it to a flatnose with large cup shaped, Speer Ashcan style hollowpoint, so it will be very easy to visually keep separate from my revolver ammo so that it will be more difficult to accidentally get stupid.

I sort of knew going in that would be the case, but had to try #2400 because Alliant listed it. Inquiring minds would want to know...

This wheelgun was an impulse purchase bought as a plinker only, because it had been reblued and I could get it so cheap. I want to use the same bullets I cast for my other .45 revolvers and cowboy rifle which all use ACP. My next test iteration will be to load my merger supplly of .45 Colt fired brass with 6 grs. of Bullseye and Saeco #954 230 grain FN Cowboy bullet, as-cast .4555 diameter which is an ideal fit for its .456 cylinder throats. I have hopes that this load will constently shoot 3 inches or better at 20 yards.  Doing so at 25 yards of course would be simply delightful, but after all, this is a 100-year old gun with crude sights, being fired by a 62-year old bald headed fat man with an inter-occular lens impant in his shooting eyeball. So we have to calmly face reality here. Being able to shoot 3 inch groups to point of aim at 20 yards is service grade accuracy, as good as a rack M1911, we have proven that. I think even his Royal Highness the ArchDuke of Montana hemself Mike Venturino would accept that. Achieving that realistic, though modest level of performance will hopefully enable me to confirm my working load of 6 grains of Bullseye by the time my backordered box of 500 new Starline cases arrive from Midway before the next full moon...

UPDATE 2-17-2011

#2400 shows accuracy promise with 250-gr. bullets in the H&R rifle. BUT there is alot of unburned powder in the barrel. No wonder it tied up the wheelgun! 

Next I want to shoot a series of groups comparing the cast 250 grain bullets loaded with #2400 to the 230-gr. cowboy bullet loaded with 6 grains of Bullseye to see if point of impact from the rifle is anywhere near close, and to see if there is an ample accuracy or HP bullet expansion performance reason to justify using #2400 for a dedicated “rifle only” load. Perhaps the cast 250-gr. hollowpoint bullets which won't expand at handgun velocity will shine all around in the rifle. I would stick to the 230 grain #954 in the Colt. Two loads are visually distinctive and therefore would be easy to keep separate.

If the rifle will readily accept unsized bullets, engraving them upon breech closure, the unsized .456 front driving band of the NEI #332 does not enter the revolver cylinder, making it that much harder to do something stupid...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 10 February 2011

I am staying tuned. This kind of thing is what got me started casting my own 25 yrs. ago. I have a very similar project underway with a 90 yr. old  S&W M&P 6” fixed sight gun I recently traded for. It seems to want to shoot. The chambers are big, easily .360, and two are bigger yet. I'm thinking a soft heavy bullet?  I'm also working on loading up some .45 Colts for the kid next door. His welcome home present from Afgh./Marines was a Taurus Judge. It's a pity, I know, but I can't tell him that, he thinks he has something.

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Ed Harris posted this 10 February 2011

In your old M&P try Saeco #358 Cowboy slug or similar. Mine cast 1:25 as-cast and unsized is right at .360, tumble in Lee Liquid Alox anbd use 3.5 grs. of Bullseye.

Good luck on Da Judge... Wonder if anyone has fooled with loading .457 roundballs or 250-gr. Lee R.E.A.L. with hefy charge of Trail Boss in all-brass .410 cases? That would be my approach for the long chamber...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 10 February 2011

Ed,

Thanks for the update with A2400. It doesn't seem any better than the Hercules stuff I did with it 30 years ago. I think you will be surprised with the 6.0 grains of Bullseye and .4555” bullets.

Ric

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gnoahhh posted this 10 February 2011

Ed, I've been loading .45 Colts for my 1920-vintage New Service as follows for about 10 years now. Ideal #454424, sized .454 to fit my throats, cast from WW/tin (bhn 12), 7gr. Universal Clays for right at 800fps. 2-3” @ 25yds., rested, depending on how hard I squint.

I bought this revolver many moons ago after getting all hepped up from reading the article you wrote in Gun Digest back in the 80's regarding interchangeable cylinders for .45 Colt/.45ACP in the same revolver.:cool:

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Dale53 posted this 10 February 2011

I grew up on a farm in SW Ohio. I probably didn't realize how good I had it until my grandfather (who owned the farm, retired and moved to the city).

I was given a .22/410 over/under for my ninth Christmas and have been a “Certified Gunny” ever since.

I got the opportunity to use a variety of handguns and long guns over the years. My father was a serious shooter and gun trader and I was tasked with doing serious tests of anything that came my father's way. I was patterning shotguns (after tearing apart shotshells and actually counting each individual pellet, etc), reading everything I could devour on shooting, casting bullets and reloading. I started casting bullets when I was about fourteen and loading same in a variety of guns. I was required to “report” in great detail EXACTLY what I had learned to my father. Dad was a precision tool maker for Wright Aeronautical (during WW II they built fighter engines) who taught me to read a pair of precision micrometers properly. In my teens I trained formally as a machinist. This type of background prepared me for my life's work as a Major Case Insurance Claims Representative.

It also allowed me to truly appreciate the tools available over the years to any informed gunny. That has had a lot to do with my personal satisfaction as a person.

I don't know Ed Harris personally, but I can assure you that I definitely “get the message” about his feelings for those grand old sixguns.

I have been a Smith man (and later added Rugers to that list) and have a number of examples of those wondrous years of truly inspired designs at hand. I also realize, that in many ways, THESE are the “good ol' days” (when I am casting bullets with a MiHec or NOE mould and shooting them through my S&W 625's and Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible) then loading them on my Dillon 550B's.

"Good on ya', Ed"...

FWIW Dale53

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Ed Harris posted this 24 February 2011

RANGE REPORT 2-24-11

Shooting indoors at 22 yards (what was a indoor 25 yard range no longer is because they remodelled to increase space behind the yellow line) the as-cast, unsized at .4555 diameter Saeco #954 230-gr. flatnosed cowboy bullet tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox and loaded with 6 grains of Bullseye seems to outshoot everything else. Not even a contest.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/attachment.php?id=2721

Hand held off sandbags with the hard to see, tiny blade front sight and U rear notch groups from the Colt New Service with #954 average about 2-1/2 inches with occasional groups under 2” but with the worst including fliers not over 3,” whereas the factory Winchester cowboy loads and handloads using both #2400 and Bullseye with the NEI 250-gr. bullet had unexplained random fliers.  Not so with the Saeco bullet. 

Same ammo: #954 unsized with LLA and 6 grs. of Bullseye shot firing the H&R CR45-LC carbine with Millet DMS scope averages inch groups at 22 yards over a good series of 30-40 shots continuous as fast as I could shoot them, in about 5 minutes, until the barrel gets too hot to hold, mirage was obvious in the scope and my eyes got tired. The best groups carefully held from a cold barrel warming up during the first ten rounds were going all into one ragged hole. This load shoots better than I can hold with an improvised rest on the indoor pistol range without a proper bench. I'm now done with load development in the .45 Colt.  Don't really care what the velocity is, guessing maybe 750-800 in the wheelgun and maybe 900-950, definitely subsonic in the rifle.  A modest 'pop' and not a Bang!!!  

Will photograph some groups and post pictures later.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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giorgio de galleani posted this 24 February 2011

We Italian cowboys appreciate fast powders in the old 45 Long Colt,and even use the 230 bullet in the 45 Schofield brass,a load similar to the 45 ACP.

 

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Ed Harris posted this 25 February 2011

giorgio de galleani wrote: We Italian cowboys appreciate fast powders in the old 45 Long Colt,and even use the 230 bullet in the 45 Schofield brass,a load similar to the 45 ACP.  And THAT is really all that anybody needs.  KISS principle 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 25 February 2011

Ed, I'm glad that 6.0 grains of Bullseye is working out for you. The POA and POI issue has been good for me in fixed sighted Colts with this load and remains my standard for paper punching. Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 25 February 2011

I appreciate the tip. Always used 5 grs. of Bullseye in the .45 Auto Rim, .45 ACP and .44 Special and it just seemed as if a simple 1 grain increase for the .45 Colt would be adequate and there would be no need for more.

This proved both right and convenient. I use 6 grs. of Bullseye from the Little Dandy measure as a light rifle plainbased plinker in almost any .30 cal. or .303 rifle as well as for the .44 Mag., etc. Just seemed right.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 25 February 2011

You've got me wishing I didn't give my .45 Colt Ruger to my nephew. But I do still have the reloading stuff. Maybe one will come along. I checked CDNN Sports website and they have the H&R carbine at $230! I don't know if they still have any or if that price is still good, but I'd guess a guy could go thru a dealer and still have one for about $300. The Marine from next door is back in NC, 4 yrs. up in a few more weeks. I'm going to load a box of .45 Colt for him to shoot in his Judge, have to guess on bullet sizing, no access to the gun right now. Along those happy lines my other nephew is due back from Afgh. to Ft. Lewis in a few more weeks, I'm batting 1,000 so far on getting my boys home safe and sound. Elk hunting in WA soon! I have to admit, sometimes this hobby and the guys that like it crack me up. I still can picture Ed shooting out his back door in a snowstorm. That tells it all right there. It all started when I was shooting back at the TV with my toy Winchester on Saturday mornings.

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Ed Harris posted this 25 February 2011

Photos of the New Service and targets. 

NRA Standard American 20-yard target fired at 22 yards actual.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 25 February 2011

looks like a white-out, or maybe no picture?

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Ed Harris posted this 01 March 2011

Snow picture I wanted to post went into computer never-never land, so posted new pics of targets into the space to keep opn topic 8-)

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Shadowdog posted this 14 March 2011

I've been using 9.5gr. of Unique with a Lyman 452460 with good results in my 1904 vintage New Service.  (Lyman 454424 shown in picture).  Nice shooting with the SAECO bullet!

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Ed Harris posted this 04 November 2011

More photos of recent .45 revolver shoot-off.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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runfiverun posted this 05 November 2011

you never got the 2400 in it's pressure zone. i could clean up 17 grs in the 45 colt with the 452664 boolit, but had to use a magnum primer to do so. i use that 452 boolit in my leverguns for hunting but over 19 grs of new 2400 with a standard win primer.

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