Avoiding Double Charges

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  • Last Post 13 April 2013
35Whelen posted this 13 February 2010

  I've read many times on the cast bullets forums the obvious danger of double charging when loading reduced loads rifles. Since I have a range at my house, when I have a few free minutes,  I have a bad habit of hastily loading a 8 or 10 rounds and heading to the bench to shoot. Although I hate to admit it, this “hasty loading” (along with my A.D.D.:P) has led to two double charges; once with 12 (x2) grs. of Unique in one of my No.4's, and another time with 13 (x2) grs. of Red Dot in one of my 03A3's. Fortunately, the rifles were unharmed, and are both still in use. Much to my surprise, the double charges didn't even blow the primers although the bolts were a little difficult to open.

  On another occassion, my future son-in-law was loading (for the first time) 30-06 rounds for a 50 round High Power match. I had him loading 20 grs. of AA5744 with M2 pull down bullets and  warned him emphatically to be extremely, extremely careful  not to double charge the cases. I was next to him weight sorting bullets and doing my best to watch him closely. He loaded a total of about 60 rounds. After he left I thought I should weight check his loaded rounds and found FOUR double charged!!

 Also, my High Power load for my K-31 uses 6.7 grs.  Bullseye and it's all but impossible to visually detect a double charge with such a light load of fine grained powder. Since I load at least 100 of these per month, there's always the danger of a double charge.

  I decided there had to be a better, safer way to avoid this, and found a very simple solution. After sizing and priming, I place the cases base up in the loading blocks. (This also eliminates the possibility of leaving a case unprimed) Then I charge the cases with the powder and seat the bullet all in one step. It may be a little slower than charging all the cases at once then seating the bullets, but it's infinitely safer.

  I doubt I'm the first to come up with this technique, but hopefully it'll help someone.

  Regards,

  35W

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JetMech posted this 13 February 2010

That's a good technique. I'll give it a try. What I have been doing, because with my eyesight, it's hard to judge the column heighth, is to grab a wooden dowel and use it to gage the column height. It's easy and fast, when you've indexed with your finger tip, to check each case.

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JSH posted this 13 February 2010

Bill what I have done in the past when i was still using a lot more light loads was about th same with the dowel. I used to use a sharpie and mark a correct amount on the dowel. I then had a lot of dowels with marks. So, rather than make a mark, I found a tight fitting O ring or rubber washer that fit the dowel and use that as a moveable refernce point. It will show an over charge but not much good on under or none at all. I still inspect them with a flash light before seating. I still am not 110% confidant in a progressive, though I do own three of them and use them mostly for case prep. jeff

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mike morrison posted this 13 February 2010

agree and practice the above statements. although with the progessive the rcbs lockout die is well worth the cost. m

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grouch posted this 13 February 2010

I've used the technique of brass upside down into the powder funnel - into the press - bullet seated with light loads for fifty years or so and have never had a double charge. Maybe set in my ways, but not about to change.

Grouch

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ubetcha posted this 13 February 2010

My technique is also pretty similar to everyone else.As soon as I put a charge in the case I set a bullet into rhe case and move it to another location on the loading board,or seat the bullet right away

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raytear posted this 13 February 2010

From my very first loaded cartridge I have followed the practice .35 Whelen mentions, i.e., charging the case and immediately seating the bullet.

I have had a few instances of missing the powder charge because of distractions, but have yet to multi-charge a case. As soon as I charge it, I put it on the ram, then fit the bullet. I use seating dies that tend to straighten up the bullet before it gets pressed into the case mouth. That way, if it is in the shell holder I assume it has powder in it.

I have never seen that technique mentioned in any handloading article, but it seemed like common sense from the get-go-----and still does. That is how I have taught my sons, too.

Good for you .35 Whelen!

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hunterspistol posted this 13 February 2010

     I've always loaded that way, so naturally, I agree with you.  I single stage though, and that's a bit too slow for some folks.  I also look at bulkier, slower rifle powders to keep that from happening.  If you pour it all over the bench, you get a good indication that it's too much(messy, though).

Ron

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303Guy posted this 17 June 2010

35Whellen, I too am ADD - in fact, I have Asbergers (to a lesser degree).  All that means is I am easily distracted, even by my own thoughts.  There is no way I would load a cartridge other than the base up method.  Once the powder is in the cases, I take a torch and examine each one (easy to see one that is incorrect).  If the load is critical such as reduced loads of bullseye, I use a metering rod to physically check each charge.  But mostly I stay away from fast powder reduced charges.  Instead I have developed a slow powder reduced charge (not my own invention) which uses a bulk filler.  For faster powders I like the charge to be less than half the max.  Beyond that I look for powders that fill the case.

I have put multiple safety practices in place which have paid off more than once.

Just to give an example of easily a mistake can be made - how oten doe we hit the wrong key on our keyboards?  And leave out word?  Or right the same same word twice?  We thought it all through correctly but the fingers just didn't follow so good.

P.S. The reduced charge slow powder need to be safe from possible SEE as well and it's so easy to put too little powder in a case!/images/emoticons/134.gif

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Coydog posted this 17 June 2010

I do it this way that is almost like the rest has stated. I size what i will load and then I add the primers and have the cases upside done in the holder that way I know what I had put primers in and then I take each one and put the charge in and set it in the holder and you can see what one in charge and what one is not by the way the case is sitting in the holder.aThe ones just primer is primer up and the ones charge with powder primer down. and then you just keep going till you have them all charge and then you add the bullet. I had never had a problem. If you not sure of the last one is charge you just check it but when you get a act of it you will have no problem.Just what has work for me.

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GBertolet posted this 17 June 2010

When I charge cases I have one loading block along side of the powder measure. I have my cases in a container. The cases, one at a time, go from the container, to the powder measure, and into the block. For insurance I hold the block up to the light or use a flashlight to see if anything looks amiss. If it would suspect powder bridging or one case looks different, for whatever reason, I would dump the charge and refill again. I believe this system is about as fool proof as you can get. I cringe when I see someone on TV, leaving the cases in the loading block and moving from case to case charging under the powder measure. The least distraction, and you can have a double charge (provided the powder doesn't overflow the case) or a missed charge. I hope they then look at the cases under the light before they seat the bullets.

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canalupo posted this 17 June 2010

I charge similar to GB. I keep empty primed brass in a plastic tupper ware bowl. I then charge and put in a loading block. After loading with powder I have a magnifying glass with a light and check charge height visually. Never had a double charge in twenty years of loading.

Works for me.

Bob D

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giorgio de galleani posted this 17 June 2010

 I do know the existence and the truth of Murphy's Law.

 At a big cowboy match three years ago ,I shot a double dose of the double base Sipe in my 357 Win 92 replica by Chiappa .

I had a loud report and a cartridge stuck in the chamber.

Being a take down 357 mag rifle I was able to take down the barrel and pry out the primerless 38 sp case with a screw driver.Cleaned the barrel ,oiled and back to work.

I hate too much the slow output of single loading.

I load more than 99% of my rounds on progressive machines,and in more than fourty years I had no more than five double charges.

Of course you cannot put a  double charge in  full load bottleneck jacketed cases.

And in the 9x21 and 45auto the overload should be obvious in full loads,and not too dangerous in target lods..

The problem arises in reduced power cast bullets loads in bottleneck cases, the venerable 45/70,38-55 and in the revolver loads.where a double charge does not overflow from the case.

Here are my solutions.

 I NEVER,NEVER use weak actions,Trapdoors,73 and older Winchesters and other historical vintage guns and their replicas.

I use mostly STRONG actions that have good escaping gas ports.

I use magnum caliber guns and special loads. I prefer original and modern mauser 98 actions,Springfields 17 enfields SMLE's ,schmidt rubin etc.In the leverguns I have faith in Marlins and win 92 replicas.

I prefer the Highwall to the Sharps,though my Chiappa firearms cavalry sharps  with his high quality steel is strong, the problem is the firing pin tunnel of the original '74.

I use seldom Carcanos and Moisins whose  escaping gas handling  quality  are not known to me.

I do not use the highest loads of fast powders in reduced loads,so that a double charge is not a lunatic overload.

I use progressive presses whose shellplate is not advanced manually,but is rotated by the operating lever.As the Lee pro 1000,the 4 hole turret and the Dillon 650.

I still use a Dillon 550,where the shellplate is advanced manually,but I do not feel at ease,and I am going to sell it.

I would like the opinions and advices  of other progressive press users.

 

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kidwalli posted this 21 September 2010

Placing cases upside down in reloading block prior to installing powder is the BEST safety tip ever. Thank you.

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Ed Harris posted this 21 September 2010

Confession time.

I know from experience that a double charge of 10.4 grains of 700-X in the .45 ACP with a 200-grain Hornady full jacket SWC will give a velocity of 1300 f.p.s. and tear the grip screw bushings of a Clarke long-slide wadcutter run through the Ransom rest inserts so that the sights will not line up with the target when the gun is repositioned, but while the shot struck low on the edge of the group the gun was unharmed. I did not load the ammo, it was loaded by then NRA Director Joe White and I was testing his ammo before he went to Camp Perry. He was firing the pistol on the Ransom while I recorded velocities and read back to him, 801, 807, 813, 1304~!

I once had an almost pristine 1884 Trapdoor I used for ram bashing. I know now that a double charge of 23 grains of W231 behind a 350-grain cast bullet will not take one apart, but it did bulge the chamber, requiring a brass rod and considerable pounding with a 2 pound lead hammer to get the case out. I sold the rifle as a wall hanger to a Civil War themed restuarant required them to sign a non-firing statement, and because exterior cosmetics were unaffected I broke even.

I once double charged an '06 with 16 grains of Bullseye and an M2 Ball bullet, which did not harm a Remington 03A3 Springfield, but the bolt opened hard and it leaked a bit around the primer. I keep the case on my bench as a reminder.

I now use a strong flashlight to visually check every case for proper powder fill. A penlite is OK for straight cases, but I use a 90 lumen SureFire 6P on the bottlenecks.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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hunterspistol posted this 21 September 2010

     Good idea, Mr. Harris, LIGHT!  I flip on four 60 watt light bulbs on track lighting every time I load.  I also pick up each case and look inside before I place the bullet atop to be seated.   Loading single stage, I do five rounds at a time, pouring the powder and seating the bullets.  Also, this allows me to re-level my scale if I detect a change in position or temperature at any given 5 round interval during the load session.

    Ron

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

Back in the mid 70's when I was learning to use a Star press, I wasn't paying close enough attention at first and managed to load 2 doubles for .45acp in my first 2000 rounds. It does kill the grips and the magazine, but not the pistol. That was in the early IPSC days when the hardball equivalent load was 5.8 to 6.0 of 231 with the H&G #68 SWC. Wanted to use the Star because it's fast and we were shooting an average of 2-3000 rounds a month.

I have seen one double in a new S&W Model 29, blew the top strap and top 1/3 of the cylinder off. VERY Nasty.

Worst of the 1911 incidents, was watching someone fire a triple charge in a Colt 70 series. It damaged the gun (bulged the frame and slide, split the barrel), but it was repaired.

Funniest thing of all when someone screws up with a 1911, the pistol always seems to get tossed. Yep, I did it too I was so stunned.

Luckily. no injuries on any of these. I've seen worse with slam fires on commercial M1As. A fair amount of blood. :(

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: Confession time.

I know from experience that a double charge of 10.4 grains of 700-X in the .45 ACP with a 200-grain Hornady full jacket SWC will give a velocity of 1300 f.p.s. and tear the grip screw bushings of a Clarke long-slide wadcutter run through the Ransom rest inserts so that the sights will not

What??? You screwed up? :shock:

RUNAWAY!

If you shoot and you don't pay close attention to what you're doing, you will screw up. Me too!

:jawdrop:

Remind me to ignore you when you want to try BP in an M1. Now if you want to try it in a mouse gun, we might get enough laughter out of that concept to make it worth trying! ;)

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

raytear wrote: From my very first loaded cartridge I have followed the practice .35 Whelen mentions, i.e., charging the case and immediately seating the bullet.

I have had a few instances of missing the powder charge because of distractions, but have yet to multi-charge a case. As soon as I charge it, I put it on the ram, then fit the bullet. I use seating dies that tend to straighten up the bullet before it gets pressed into the case mouth. That way, if it is in the shell holder I assume it has powder in it.

I have never seen that technique mentioned in any handloading article, but it seemed like common sense from the get-go-----and still does. That is how I have taught my sons, too.

Good for you .35 Whelen!

When using a progressive press the way some of us do for pistol ammo (Dillon or Star or whatever)... best bet is always just work in a well lit area and PAY ATTENTION!

Anytime my mind starts to wander, I just get up and walk away for a few moments. Works on a Dillon and Star, because I constantly scan the cycling, including the powder levels. On the Dillon I'm using, slight problem with the case feeder so I shift my gaze back and forth. I'll fix it, but something I do watch anyway. I do prefer the Star.

With progressive presses (depending on which one), if you put a bullet on a case with the powder charge before it's ready to get seated, sometimes the bullet flops off center which causes a problem with the seating. Again, this is for progressive press users. Issue with the Star is that you can recycle the case plate (holder) and that's where you drop a double if you're not careful.... Stars are tricky, but they are really fast and they can take fine grain powder like Titegroup, which takes less powder.

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Ed Harris posted this 12 April 2013

I like most of all Giorgio's frank tally of how many double-charges he had experienced with progressive loaders in forty years of reloading. Very similar to mine over a similar period of time.

Therein lies both a clue and a warning.

Over millions of rounds and active shooting, with ordinary care the risk is slight, but it is still there.

The biggest factor is distraction. As rojkoh says.

Avoid any distraction while loading.

If possible use a powder in which a double charge either will not blow apart a strong gun, like my Ruger Police Service Six in .38 Spoecial or a good M1911, and/or

A powder which is bulky enougb that a double charge would overflow the case. That was the reasoning being my Red Dot cast rifle loads years ago, but, unfortunately, coarse flake shotgun powders do not meter well in pistol weight charges in the progressive loaders.

So... the alternative is to practice visual inspection 100% check without fail, for correct powder fill.

The latter is more difficult with some of the progressive loaders, but with good lighting and proper attention as the turret advances the Dillon and Star permit a visual check, but placing a small dental mirror in the right orientation on the machine is routine among commercial loaders.

Great thread. Thx. rojkoh.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: I like most of all Giorgio's frank tally of how many double-charges he had experienced with progressive loaders in forty years of reloading. Very similar to mine over a similar period of time.

Therein lies both a clue and a warning.

Over millions of rounds and active shooting, with ordinary care the risk is slight, but it is still there.

The biggest factor is distraction. As rojkoh says.

Avoid any distraction while loading.

If possible use a powder in which a double charge either will not blow apart a strong gun, like my Ruger Police Service Six in .38 Spoecial or a good M1911, and/or

A powder which is bulky enougb that a double charge would overflow the case. That was the reasoning being my Red Dot cast rifle loads years ago, but, unfortunately, coarse flake shotgun powders do not meter well in pistol weight charges in the progressive loaders.

So... the alternative is to practice visual inspection 100% check without fail, for correct powder fill.

The latter is more difficult with some of the progressive loaders, but with good lighting and proper attention as the turret advances the Dillon and Star permit a visual check, but placing a small dental mirror in the right orientation on the machine is routine among commercial loaders.

Great thread. Thx. rojkoh.

Anytime, I don't mind because I don't waste time cleaning up after using Bullseye! ;) :taz:

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Iowa Fox posted this 12 April 2013

I have several of the Herters plastic reloading trays, white ones, and red ones. The primed ready to load cases are in the white one on my right side. As the cases are chrged they are moved to the red tray on my left. After the cases are charged I take a bright flashlight and check the powder level in each case visualy a couple of times in the red tray. After I'm satisfied I pick them up from the left, seat the bullet and move back to the white tray on the right.

If I'm loading on my Dillon I have a light rigged up that shines into the case after the powder has been dropped. Before I set a bullet on the charged case I visually check every single chrged case for proper powder column heigth. 

   

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

Iowa Fox wrote: I have several of the Herters plastic reloading trays, white ones, and red ones. The primed ready to load cases are in the white one on my right side. As the cases are chrged they are moved to the red tray on my left. After the cases are charged I take a bright flashlight and check the powder level in each case visualy a couple of times in the red tray. After I'm satisfied I pick them up from the left, seat the bullet and move back to the white tray on the right.

If I'm loading on my Dillon I have a light rigged up that shines into the case after the powder has been dropped. Before I set a bullet on the charged case I visually check every single chrged case for proper powder column heigth.    

Good procedure!

Not in love with the Dillon, but they do have their uses, especially since Stars are hard to find these days (although someone is trying to restart it again).

Thanks for sharing.

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Duane Trusty posted this 12 April 2013

What's wrong with using a powder check die?

Duane

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rojkoh posted this 12 April 2013

Duane Trusty wrote: What's wrong with using a powder check die?

Duane

Never said that there was, but it is important to pay attention when loading ammo with or without a powder check.

I've just seen to many accidents over the years from bad reloading. I will always push for proper procedures including getting up and taking a break if someone's mind starts wandering... that's typically when you get bit.

Ed can probably come up with more “oops” stories than I can.

At the moment I'm having a raging discussion over crimping rifle ammo, for one simple reason. If a new shooter or reloader starts into it and makes a mistake without understanding what to do when it happens, the results could be disastrous (especially with ARs). You can crimp without damaging a bullet and since everything thinks it's “Not necessary” they overlook the implications of what they're posting.

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R. Dupraz posted this 12 April 2013

I have used a Hornady Projector progressive press now for several years and like it. Mostly loading rifle with cast and IMR 4227. And I have a powder cop die in the next station after the powder dump. There is a rod in the die that indicates the level of powder in the charged case so that one can see if it is right or not.

This works well “IF” the exposed portion of this rod is visually checked each and every time and without fail, a charged case comes around.

I found early on that one can become distracted and forget to check this Powder cop die rod as the cases are advanced if you are not careful. Whenever this happens, or if I even think it happens, I remove all charged cases after the powder dump station and set them aside, to be loaded at the end.

Also, I weigh several loaded rounds to get the average weight and then can check the weights after that just to be sure.

RD

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bushranch posted this 12 April 2013

Might mention powder bridging in the powder funnel neck if you are using a balance scale. SR 4759 is one to watch. Good way to avoid this is to drop the scale pan right into the powder funnel and give it a shake. Leave the pan in the funnel and move it to the next case before you remove the pan. Check charged case with a flashlight and finger touch each case while doing this check..

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LWesthoff posted this 13 April 2013

I used a Star for years when I was shooting Bullseye Pistol competition. If you're going to double charge a case with a Star, you just about have to do it on purpose. When I switched over to Bench Rest Rifle, I quickly discovered that my Senior Citizen eyes weren't good enough to spot a double charge with a low density load in a 30-06 case. I dug out a 4H drafting pencil that has writing 'most all the way up and down one flat, and it will drop right in a .30 cal. neck. I throw my powder charge, dump in on my PACT scale pan, and add or delete powder if necessary. When I've filled my loading block(s), I drop that pencil, flat end down, in each and every case. It actually goes pretty fast, and it's pretty near a fool proof way to be sure you have no double (or short) charges. It also enabled me to find -once- a wad of paper towel from my case cleaning process. I used to use strips of paper towel in my case tumbler to keep the ground corn cob cleaner. Don't do that any more.

Wes

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rojkoh posted this 13 April 2013

LWesthoff wrote: I used a Star for years when I was shooting Bullseye Pistol competition. If you're going to double charge a case with a Star, you just about have to do it on purpose.

Indeed, but being young and dumb and not really understanding what I was doing, I did recycle a case twice and got a double. I agree, fine presses and an old friend and I are waiting for ours. Got a great guy that refurbishes the Star equipment and I've missed mine since a friend took it up to Oregon by mistake.

When I switched over to Bench Rest Rifle, I quickly discovered that my Senior Citizen eyes weren't good enough to spot a double charge with a low density load in a 30-06 case. I dug out a 4H drafting pencil that has writing 'most all the way up and down one flat, and it will drop right in a .30 cal. neck. I throw my powder charge, dump in on my PACT scale pan, and add or delete powder if necessary. When I've filled my loading block(s), I drop that pencil, flat end down, in each and every case. It actually goes pretty fast, and it's pretty near a fool proof way to be sure you have no double (or short) charges. It also enabled me to find -once- a wad of paper towel from my case cleaning process. I used to use strips of paper towel in my case tumbler to keep the ground corn cob cleaner. Don't do that any more.

Wes

Good one chuckle. I have the same problem, but I'll deal with it. Still love shooting Hi-power/service rifle. Eyes aren't good enough for 1000 yard iron sights anymore.

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rojkoh posted this 13 April 2013

Duane Trusty wrote: What's wrong with using a powder check die?

Duane

I am going to touch on this for a reason... and that reason is people that aren't “wise in the ways” can and do often rely or become dependant on technology and get sloppy.

I'm certainly not saying you're doing it, but the kids today tend to do things like that and in turn become dangerous. So in this case, my advice would be to always add the adviso that safety comes first, always watch to make sure the technology (in this case a powder checker) IS working right.

Don't believe me? Ask Ed. He certainly has more stories about this than I do.

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Mike Gordon posted this 13 April 2013

Most of my reloading is for handguns (95%), mostly Bullseye or Unique, and I only use a single stage press and a loading tray. I visually inspect each case. But one thing I have figured out is the first thing to do after I set my measure, is to purposely throw a double charge and then visually compare both so I know what to look for. Immediately afterward dump both cases back into the powder hopper.

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rojkoh posted this 13 April 2013

Mike Gordon wrote: Most of my reloading is for handguns (95%), mostly Bullseye or Unique, and I only use a single stage press and a loading tray. I visually inspect each case. But one thing I have figured out is the first thing to do after I set my measure, is to purposely throw a double charge and then visually compare both so I know what to look for. Immediately afterward dump both cases back into the powder hopper.

Well I disagree with the powders (just joking)but after all these years, I have loaded pistol on single stage and end up wanting to tear my hair out. I'm just to used to cycling a progressive given the amount of ammo we use.

BUT, simple suggestion: IF your powder thrower sits for any length of time and depending on make, throw 3-5 charges to settle the amount down before you start reloading. Otherwise, superb procedure!

Again, just a suggestion, because in a lot of powder throwers (including Culvers), you'll find when you use them cold, you can get a small amount of irregular powder throws. Results may vary... (another old joke).

;)

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