45 200 LSWC

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alco posted this 02 October 2019

I was wondering if anyone had done any experiments or tests of the 45  200 LSWC  (the old H&G 68, I believe) as a self defense round.

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Ed Harris posted this 02 October 2019

Not for SD, but passes the woodchuck test.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Larry Gibson posted this 02 October 2019

I've long used that bullet, or a similar bullet, over 7.5 gr Unique as a hunting/varmint/PD load.  It was a load recommended by Col Cooper "back in the day".  Having pressure tested the cartridge it does not exceed the SAAMI MAP for the standard 45 ACP cartridge.  My current copy of that H&G #68 is the Lee copy.  Cast of COWW + 2% tin (AC"D) , sized .451 and lubed with BAC it runs 1025 fps out of my 5" P-14 and 1050 fps out of my 5.5" M1911 Colt.  I have put down injured deer, elk, livestock with it and shot lots of jacks, coyote and other vermin.  It kills well.  While I have not used it for SD/PD (use the same load under a 200 gr Speer HP or Hornady 200 gr XTP) I would not hesitate to use it if I had to and would have the utmost confidence it would do the job.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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M3 Mitch posted this 02 October 2019

The H&G 68 design is a truncated cone with a wadcutter edge, the TC bullets are reputed to be quite effective man-stoppers even as FMJ bullets.  When the 9mm came out in the Luger, German military rounds had TC (FMJ) bullets and from what I have read they did a lot of damage. I have not done any specific testing, but, I would expect H&G 68 bullets to be quite effective as defensive rounds. They are already as big in diameter as the most dramatic 9mm expanding bullets, and weigh more.

For that matter I wonder about some of the "flying coffee cup" lightweight hollow-point bullets served up at high velocity in some factory offerings.  A big guy layered up for winter in a leather jacket - they might not penetrate enough to do the job.  I'd bet the H&G would.

But I am just speculating here, I have no data.

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max503 posted this 02 October 2019

I shoot the Lee 200gn swc over Unique in my 45's and it has always done well. It has been totally accurate and reliable so far. I guess those qualities would make it a good SD bullet.  This is at 50 feet from my LW Combat Commander.

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Clod Hopper posted this 04 May 2020

That .45 ACp load of Coopers is too hot now unless you shoot it in .45 Super brass and properly set up gun.  A load I am testing is the #68 over 8.2 grains of CFE Pistol.  According to Hodgson this will push this bullet to 1,140 fps.  Also, Enforcer and AA No 5 have potential to break 1,000 fps within pressure limits.

 

To answer your question yes, this load would put a man down, that is why Cooper recommend it, but then you have to explain why regular factory ammo was inferior.  And even though I use a Dillon and a RCBS progressive, sometimes no powder gets into the case, even though I watch.  I carry factory in public, and cast SWC on the farm for coon, possums and skunks.

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Wheel Weights posted this 04 May 2020

You punch a .452 hole in anyone and they will reconsider. My Dad's 1911 had 6 notches in it before he stopped counting. CO of Co K, 109th of the 28th.

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Larry Gibson posted this 04 May 2020

"That .45 ACp load of Coopers is too hot now unless you shoot it in .45 Super brass and properly set up gun"

 

Not correct.  Cooper's recommend SD load of 7.5 gr Unique under a 200/205 gr H&G style cast bullet runs a measured (Oehler M43 with a Contender test barrel) 18,500 - 19,000 psi.

The SAAMI MAP is 21,000 psi for the standard 45 ACP.  Most standard factory loads 185 - 230 gr jacketed bullets) run 15,000 - 18,000 psi.  

Hornady Critical Duty and Cor-Bon are +P and run at 21 - 22,000  psi.  

Again, those are all actual measured psi's not book/manual claims or computer program guestimates.

 

Cooper's load of 7.5 gr Unique under a 200 - 205 gr cast SWC has proven to be an excellent load.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Eutectic posted this 05 May 2020

I have used both the H&G 68 and The H&G 130 SWC's on small game with great success. If you like to carry a 45 ACP semi-auto they are excellent bullets. For defense they are a good choice as they do not rely on expansion to work. Some places have restrictions on HP ammunition and a SWC is better than a round nose.

If you use a 45 ACP revolver they are not a bad choice, but there are better designs with wider meplats.

Steve

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Ed Harris posted this 08 May 2020

My favorite in the M1917 and 1950 S&W .45 ACP and .45 Colt DA revolvers is:

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Clod Hopper posted this 08 May 2020

None of the current load data from Alliant list 7.5 grains as a maximum.  they do get close with 7.3 grains for the Speer 200 lead SWC.  It is my understanding that the Unique Cooper used is slower than the current Unique.  I did not want anyone blowing up a gun.  It is an excellent load and one I have used in my guns with 18# springs, but we have to be careful about older data.  Forgive me for being conservative, but I found some old Lyman data to be dangerous with current powders and I am more careful now that I used to be.

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RicinYakima posted this 08 May 2020

You have to match the age of your powder and the data used at that time.

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DB404 posted this 09 May 2020

Thankfully, I’ve not had to try the H&G 68 for self defense. But I wouldn’t have any qualms about doing so. Seated over 7.3 gr old Unique it did a fine job (much better than factory 230 gr rn) on porcupine, coyotes, jackrabbits and PNW blacktail deer. Farthest shot on deer was a broad shot at a shade past 75 yards; hit ribs going in and when exiting the far side. Tried 7.5 which worked fine but in my pistol 7.3 was more accurate. The 1911 is still a very handy piece on any worthwhile adventure!

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Brodie posted this 10 May 2020

For a while I used 6.8 gr of Unique in the 45 acp. behind a 200 gr SWC.  It was a wonderfully flat shooting load , and the recoil didn't seem to give that annoying flip and twist, but came much more straight back into my hand.  The load was very accurate as I remember, and dropped jack's like the hammer of Thor.

 

B.E.Brickey

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358156hp posted this 25 May 2020

If I feel the need to use cast for SD, this is my choice, and I already have a four cavity mould for it. LBT 230 gr. 452 LFN. Very comparable to Eds choice. I do have moulds for the lighter SWCs, H&G 68, Lyman 452460, and the like, but I'd prefer a little more bullet weight if I had a choice.

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lbullock1 posted this 09 June 2020

May I presume that for the 1911 .45 acp you fill the crimp groove with lube, and seat the bullet to cover the crimp groove with a taper crimp?  Any feeding issues in your 1911s?

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alco posted this 09 June 2020

I cast and reload the the Lee 200 SWC.  It is tumble lubed.  As long as I seat it to  1.23 to 1.235, it's as smooth as a  gravy sandwich in feeding.  I had to shoot about a 1000 rounds to get it broke in !.  I very rarely ever shoot it now.................

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358156hp posted this 10 June 2020

If you're asking me, there is no crimp groove in this bullet, it's designed around 45 ACP, and is not a repurposed revolver bullet design. The nose profile is exactly the same as the 45 cal. LFN revolver bullets though. So far it has fed perfectly in 1911s and S&W M&Ps.

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skeet1 posted this 11 June 2020

I think there may be some confusion about the Lee 200 gr. swc .45. There are two different bullets that Lee makes moulds for, a conventional lube groove and a multi grooved tumble lube type. Both are excellent! 

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BigMan54 posted this 13 June 2020

My Dad carried a Pachmayr worked Colt 1911 from the late 1940's until sherman block became Sheriff in 1982. He took away 99% of all CCW's.

While I can't tell you the exact load, I know it used a H&G # 68 200gr flat base. Same bullet he shot in Bullseye Matches. But with a heavier powder charge.

I cast the RCBS copy and load over 5.2grs of Titegroup. 

I have several 100 of the old Hornady 200grs JTC bullet. I have some loaded up for SD. 

Don't trust factory ammo. 

When I want Serious Ammo, I load it single-stage. Look into every case in that loading block. Every case has powder and every case has the same charge weight. 

Shot ATA & NSSA as a Junior. 1966-1971, factory ammo by Fed & Win cost My trophy's more the once.

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Ed Harris posted this 13 June 2020

As FYI - fooling with an evaluation copy of a terminal ballistics program I compared H&G68 with hardball and JHP in .45 ACP, not much difference between H&G68 and Ball ammo, but a JHP which expands well has less penetration with greater "energy dump" and more wound displacement.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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