.44 Special - Help! Warning: long.

762 Views
Last Post 26 March 2024

Standard Member

jtcarm posted this 29 January 2024

Backstory: I bought a new 4” S&W 24-3 40 years ago.

It was my favorite handgun, but was continually plagued by endshake. Not knowing any better, back in the early 90s, I took it twice to a local gunsmith for repair.

It sat till a few years ago when I bought some Power shims. After about 4 shims, I still had end-shake with .013 b/c gap. It went back in the safe. I had sold off all of my .44 molds.

Last year, I decided to treat myself, and per recommendations, shipped it off to David Fink for his accuracy & durability package, plus a 1/10” gold bead front sight.

It returned beautiful, with a .006 gap and zero detectable end-shake.

The only problem is, 25-yard groups shot from the bags look like 00 Buck.

Wanting a load that produced 900 fps with a fat—meplat bullet. After looking over their catalog, ordered this one from Accurate:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bulletdetail.php?bullet=43-219A

The chamber throats on this gun barely pass a .433 pin gauge. .434 is too big. So I ordered the mold to drop .433 bullets (positive tolerance).

In the mean time, I ordered .433 size die and .431/.435 expander plug from Buffalo Arms.

Bullets cast great and drop a hair over .433 and about 8 grains heavier than advertise.

I size & lube with RCBS lube (got a bunch on close out). The BACO expander aligns the bullets perfectly so they seat without damage.

They get a light roll crimp from a Redding profile die, just enough so the bullets don’t slip and rounds chamber.

I’ve tried almost every medium-burn rate powder: Unique, HS6, Universal, Power Pistol, even 4227 and 2400. 9.0 grains of HS6 gives the best semblance of groups, followed by 8.0 Power Pistol (which is way hotter than I need.)

My cheap chrono hasn’t recorded velocities since Apple ditched the audio Jack, so I don’t have precise stats, but I’m noticing large extreme spreads. I’ve checked the powder measure (Hornady) and even loaded some on my old RCBS. No improvement.

The bullet leads a little bit at 900-1000 fps. A quick scrub of the warm barrel every 3-4 groups gets it out.

I’ve sunk quite a bit into this gun and components, so I need some accuracy.

Is there a decent commercial bullet or ammo that will at least tell me if it’s the ammo or the gun?

I really don’t want to buy another mold just to see if it will shoot.

Attached Files

26 Comments

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes

Standard Member

jtcarm posted this 29 January 2024

Forgot to mention: the alloy is 50/50, COWW+2/straight Pb.

Attached Files

CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 29 January 2024

Do you have a Ransom Rest? or access to one?

Attached Files

Standard Member

jtcarm posted this 29 January 2024

No Ransom Rest.

Attached Files

Standard Member

MP1886 posted this 29 January 2024

First thing I'd do is buy a box of jacket bullet, unless you have some, and see how they shoot. Contrary to popular believe an expert shooter can out shoot a Ransom rest.

If those jacketed bullets shoot much better then you have something wrong with your cast loads or bullet. Your alloy sounds like it's okay. I would also try some light loads with Bullseye see what they do. In my book 4227 and 2400 aren't exactly medium burn rate pistol powders.

Attached Files

CBA Member

delmarskid posted this 29 January 2024

7g of unique is supposed to be good. My next step would be running without the plain lead and getting a bit harder bullet. Hornady 200’s shoot well in my 44 magnum. Their 180 grain bullet shot tight in my Charter Bulldog 44 Special. Maybe dropping to 750fps will show something. You can always try to move up from there. Is there any silliness going on with the barrel? Tight/loose spots, goofy cone shape, that sort of thing?

Attached Files

CBA Member

delmarskid posted this 29 January 2024

What is the rate of twist on a 24? Might your bullets be too long?

Attached Files

Standard Member

MP1886 posted this 29 January 2024

What is the rate of twist on a 24? Might your bullets be too long?

I would say the twist rate for a Smith is 18 3/4 inch.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 29 January 2024

"Contrary to popular believe an expert shooter can out shoot a Ransom rest."

Not Trying to be a hard a$$, but there are very few expert shooters in this world. The other suggestions are excellent, buy some 200 grain factory jacketed ammo and shoot a 10 shot group from the bench at 25 yards.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Aaron posted this 29 January 2024

I have been getting head turning results with Titegroup powder in my 32s, 44s, and 45 caliber revolvers. Might be worth a try with 20:1 alloy.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

CBA Member

lotech posted this 29 January 2024

I recently tried an alloy with a BHN of 7-8 with some .38 Special loads using a 160 grain H&G #51 SWC design. These are loaded to app. factory equivalent velocity, about 850 - 875 fps from a 6" barrel. They grouped noticeably better than the 12-13 BHN alloy I had been using. I have to do some more shooting to verify, but I intend to try this soft alloy with my .44 Special loads as well.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Larry Gibson posted this 29 January 2024

jtcarm

The 42-219 [that should be a 220 - 230 gr bullet?] should stabilize in the M24s twist rate. My suggestion is to soften the alloy by mixing the COWWs + 2% tin with pure lead at 50/50. Then try 5 - 6 gr of Bullseye or Red Dot.

Also, I've found, contrary to current thought, that shoving a .433 sized bullet through a .429 groove diameter barrel is not conducive to the best accuracy. The bullet, if lubed, will come out the muzzle swaged down to .425 +/-. That much reduction done in the microseconds of firing is not good on the bullet. I've found with me shooting and a Ransom Rest that best accuracy is had with a lubed cast bullet not more than .002 over barrel groove diameter. If the cylinder throats are larger than .002 over then a harder bullet, such as yours with 14 - 15 BHN, will give better accuracy if not sized more that .003 over groove and, preferably, not more than .002 over groove. Yes, I know that is against current thought, but it is what I and others have found.

If leading, in the cylinder throats or barrel, occurs it is a function of the lube not being correct. Change to a softer lube such a a 50/50 lube.

For many years and about 5,000 rounds worth, I shot .429 sized 429421s out of a 44 magnum revolver with a .429 groove diameter and .434 throats. I could, and many times did put five rounds into about 1" at 25 yards. Then I read Venturino's article about proper fit "fit" in revolvers. So I got a group buy mould that cast .433 - .434 429421 bullets. Sized and lubed them at .433, loded them up with the same load(s) and expected a death ray.....what I got was "improved cylinder groups of 4 - 6"+ at 25 yards. Put the .429 bullets in and got 1 - 1.5" groups. Subsequently over the years, I have tried matching bullet diameter to several over sized throated revolvers and have pretty much gotten the same results. The 4 most accurate revolvers I have are those with cylinder throats at or not more than .002" over the barrel groove diameter.

Thus, you see, what you have found with your M24 is what I have also experienced. You might even try some hard cast .429 or .430 sized bullets though I would give then a well dried coat of LLA before loading. Or, I'm sure, some of us would send some bullets to try.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Larry Gibson posted this 29 January 2024

"RicinYakima posted this 9 hours ago

"Contrary to popular believe an expert shooter can out shoot a Ransom rest."

I certainly agree as, up until I got the Ransom Rest from you, I've used them on and off for years. I've heard several self proclaimed "experts" make that claim but never saw any of them prove it. A random 3 shot group at any range is not proof. Only a side by side test using the same handgun [revolver in this case] with the same load would be proof. Not saying it might not be done but........

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

Liked by

Standard Member

jtcarm posted this 29 January 2024

Larry,

Thanks for the very informative reply.

I am casting with 50/50 alloy, although thinking back, I started with straight COWW+2% and seemed to get better groups.

I do have some .431 bullets I cast in another life. Gas-checked LBT 280 WFNs, drop-quenched COWW. I’ll give them a try.

Wish I’d talked to you before ordering the mold & dies.

Any suggestions for slugging a 5-groove bore?

Attached Files

Standard Member

MP1886 posted this 29 January 2024

So Larry, what you are saying is that "your way is the BEST in the world"? Is that correct? Can we have a Yes or a No to seal it?

You over exaggerate. Take the 45 Colt Smith Model 25 I often talk about. It has .456 cylinder throats and the groove diameter is .451. I my opinion the time period my Model 25 was made the bore and groove is for a 45acp 1911 barrel. It doesn't have the deeper rifling that the 38 Specials, 357 Magnums, 41 Magnums, and the 44 Magnum. Why Smith chose to do it that way I don't know. With cast bullets, of just about any alloy, including 200 grains SWC's, and especially the 255 grain RCBS SWC that mine weight between 255 and 260 grains depending on alloy used, sized to .452 will shoot a smaller group then any tuned 1911 you have at 25 yards. I was once asked by a 44 magnum lover who shot extremely well to shoot my Model 25 off a bench at 100 yards. I can shoot 1 1/2 inch groups with it, not 1.5 MOA. Now I shot .456 bullets from that Model 25 and they shot very damn good, not better then the ones sized .452, but they sure as hell didn't shoot scatter gun groups. In fact I've shot fat bullets out of semi-auto pistols, revolvers, and rifles and have never seen what you are saying.

jtcarm you make up your mind what YOU want to do. I would suggest try ALL the advise given you here. Don't pick someone who you THINK is the expert to be your GOD OF SHOOTING>

Attached Files

Online CBA Member

Fiddler posted this 29 January 2024

Interesting about sizing a couple thou over groove. I have a ~1920 32 cal. S&W Hand Ejector with .315 throats, so that's what the bullets have been sized to. Accuracy has not been great, over a rest it's good for 3 - 4" at 25yds. Really should be able to do better. Alloy runs 9 to 10 Brinell range scrap. Future test loads sized smaller, we'll see what happens!

Attached Files

CBA Member

Larry Gibson posted this 29 January 2024

MP 1886

No, I did not say that. I offered a suggestion and simply offered what i have found regarding the subject of the thread. I could give jtcarm many more examples that demonstrate my point. Nice of you to add credence to my point with "Take the 45 Colt Smith Model 25 I often talk about. It has .456 cylinder throats and the groove diameter is .451......With cast bullets, of just about any alloy, including 200 grains SWC's, and especially the 255 grain RCBS SWC that mine weight between 255 and 260 grains depending on alloy used, sized to .452 will shoot a smaller group then any tuned 1911 you have at 25 yards."

Thank you for sharing that with us......

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

Standard Member

MP1886 posted this 29 January 2024

MP 1886

No, I did not say that. I offered a suggestion and simply offered what i have found regarding the subject of the thread. I could give jtcarm many more examples that demonstrate my point. Nice of you to add credence to my point with "Take the 45 Colt Smith Model 25 I often talk about. It has .456 cylinder throats and the groove diameter is .451......With cast bullets, of just about any alloy, including 200 grains SWC's, and especially the 255 grain RCBS SWC that mine weight between 255 and 260 grains depending on alloy used, sized to .452 will shoot a smaller group then any tuned 1911 you have at 25 yards."

Thank you for sharing that with us......

LMG

You're making me laugh larry. I didn't put that down about my 45 Colt Smith for credence for you, I put that down to show you it still shot pretty dang good, but the .452 shot a tad better. In fact if you were to stand at 25 yards I could shoot a golf ball off your head with those fat .456 bullets. Now does that sound like a scattergun? No it doesn't. Most the other guns I shoot the fast bullet that will chamber. Take my 1886 Browning Winchester 45-70 carbine. Has a .458 groove. Got a 420 grain RCBS bullet mold for it that fattest it will cast is .457. Oh it shot well, good enough to take deer with. Then when I started shooting the fattest bullet that would chamber a cartridge, which in my rifle is .461 to .462 and neck sizing the cast it started exceptionally well! To the tune of being able to hit a milk jug at 400 yards ALL THE TIME, and with open sights!! Now get this. I put a big carboard below that jug to get my elevation right on my ladder sight. I would drive down to the target on my ATV and guess what I found on that cardboard larry? I found two and three bullets cutting one another. That rifle never shot like that with the smaller diameter bullets. I have many guns like that. Got a WW2 P 38 Walther. Use to shoot 4 to 5 inche groups at 25 yards. Started feeding it swaged .358 bullet and it started chewing a hole. It's a 9mm as you know. They still chamber in that Walther. It's a shooter now. My P 08 Luger was the same way until I started feeding it .359 bullets, which chamber, and it shoots 1/2 groups for a magazine full. It's not always the other way around as your propose.

Good shoot pal, keep them in the ten ring.

Tony

Attached Files

CBA Member

Aaron posted this 30 January 2024

My cheap chrono hasn’t recorded velocities since Apple ditched the audio Jack, so I don’t have precise stats, but I’m noticing large extreme spreads.

Amazon

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

CBA Member

Eutectic posted this 30 January 2024

Seeing the back and forth about revolver accuracy makes my brain itch. I have seen examples of ALL the solutions offered working in my revolvers in my hands. A revolver has a lot more issues than throat/groove diameter.

There are multiple throats, we assume they are identical at our peril. Pin gauges do not reveal out of round throats. No one mentioned throat/bore misalignment which is quite common. Is alignment the same for all chambers?

I think throats 0.001 over groove diameter is about ideal. However this can be detrimental if there is throat/barrel alignment error. In that case larger throats and smaller bullets may work better. Sometimes bigger bullets work better, they also help center the rounds in the chambers which is another factor.

The fun is in the experimenting. The joy is finding what works.

Steve

Jtcarm,

Try everything! Your alloy hardness should be OK. If you buy commercial cast bullets they will probably be BHN ~18 which may too hard, but try them. You might try ~250 grain bullets to get more engraved length. The revolver will let you know when you have the correct combination.

Attached Files

Liked by

Standard Member

OU812 posted this 30 January 2024

My factory Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt leaded very badly (shootgun groups) with alloys on the hard side. Switched to soft 20/1 alloy and quicker Titegroup powder fixed problem. Titegroup meters way easier than flake powder such as Bullseye, Unique

Attached Files

Standard Member

MP1886 posted this 30 January 2024

My factory Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt leaded very badly (shootgun groups) with alloys on the hard side. Switched to soft 20/1 alloy and quicker Titegroup powder fixed problem. Titegroup meters way easier than flake powder such as Bullseye, Unique

Honestly, I've never had a handgun barrel lead real bad UNTIL I bought these double end 38 full wadcutter bullets from an indoor range I use to shoot at. The handgun was a Model 19 Smith. Talked to the owner of the range about the bullets and he said this: "Yeah the guy that casts those for us thought since Tin was good to add, he added too much and that's what happens". You all may have noticed I get on shooters that post here about adding tin to everything including their steak and too much tin is bad.

Think about this, isn't it amazing that cap n ball revolvers shoot many round balls without leading much? With Triple Seven powder in an 1860 Colt replica I'm talking velocities well over 1000 fps.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Larry Gibson posted this 30 January 2024

"Eutectic posted this 4 hours ago

Absolutely. There are numerous differences between a revolver and a closed breach system that affect the transition of a bullet between the cartridge case and the barrel. Being aware of those differences gives us a better understanding.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

Attached Files

Standard Member

jtcarm posted this 27 February 2024

As usual, not the gun or ammo, but the squishy platform it’s mounted on:

Shooting the 280-grain bullets out of a 4” Model 24 quickly brought to my attention that the web of my hand wasn’t in good contact with the top of the grip where it curves inward. This was due to bending my wrist to shoot off the bench.

In addition to the golf glove I wear when shooting DAs off the bench, I wrapped my thumb with about 1/4” of bandage tape right at the base to fill the gap.

That and pressing the grip firmly into the web of my hand between each shot and, voila, better groups.

That explains why groups shot standing were (mostly) better. No wrist bend.

Attached Files

Liked by

CBA Member

Clod Hopper posted this 02 March 2024

I may have missed something, I did not get enoough sleep last night. Did anybody suggest a slightly bigger bullet? OP can increase the size by powder coating the bullets. Get a cheap toaster oven, and some powder. Put the bullets in a plastic tub, and shake the powder in until all are covered. Set oven for 200 degrees?(I forget how much) temperature and bake for 20 minutes. Try that and let us know. If you want to stick with lube don't size them at all. I rarely size pistol bullets unless they will not chamber. IMO too big is okay, too little will not work. YMMV

Dale M. Lock

Attached Files

CBA Member

Premod70 posted this 02 March 2024

Not to throw off on anybody’s work but this revolver could be in need of further work. An easy check is to load a very slow load, just enough to get the bullet out the barrel, shoot it in wet sawdust or some other low resistance medium and check the bullet for obvious smears and signs of misalignment. My bet is it’s a issue with the revolver, those Smiths shoot better than the OP’s straight out of the box no matter what the load.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

Attached Files