Carlson Highway over on the Leverguns forum came up with an ingenious way to cannular the case just under the bullet. If you are interested, check it out here: https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=82002
Guess which one is mine? Mine is a bit much but it was just a test.
44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40
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I have already had one private message telling me I applied too much crimp. Yes it is but I also did say that it was too much...please pay close attention.
Now, in all fairness to the private message, I will add that care must be taken to not weaken the case. If the case brakes, you could certainly have major issues.
44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40
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Bryan,
You can apply the cannelure this way, but they need to be applied to the cases before loading. To do so I would use a support rod inside the case so it would limit the depth. The same modified tubing cutter is used to stretch the yoke on revolvers, but always with a support. To do it in making a cannelure the support rod would need to be only slightly smaller than the inside of the case.
David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .
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Absolutely David,
Too add.....
Here is another photo, same as above but I added a "new old stock" Winchester-Western brass case. Magtech has always used a deeper cannular (right)...probably the deepest I have ever seen. The test case on the left does not have a primer or powder.
The 44-40 does not need much cannular at all with a properly resized case for use with a particular size bullet.
The problem is mainly only when using Winchester .4255" JSP bullets with the "larger resizing dies" made for the larger diameter .429-.430 lead bullets. However, in some other cases where the loader uses a non-44-40 jacketed profile bullet, a typical LFDC crimp may not be enough, even with a snug fit with the larger diameter bullets.
Personally I do not need a cannular with the .4255 JSP with my reloading method, but other's may benefit from it. I cover my method here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die?authuser=0 when loading for the .4255 JSP. I get enough "wasp-waist" to not need the cannular...also see second photo.
Handload left, new brass center, magtech brass right
A smaller resize, Redding profile crimp and "Wasp-Waist" is plenty to prevent the bullet from telescoping down into the case from the magtube spring tension.
44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40
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I got a old pipe cutter a ground the cutter down and use that
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Pisco,
You must mean a tubing cutter as Bryan references in the link and I talk about in my post.. A pipe cutter would be way too large.
David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .
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I've never had a bullet set back into the case.
Probably because My OLD set of Lyman dies sizes the case so far down that seating the bullet creates a "shoulder" underneath the bullet preventing it from being forced any deeper in the case by magazine spring pressure. Guess that works the same as a case cannalure.
Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.
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I've never had a bullet set back into the case.
Probably because My OLD set of Lyman dies sizes the case so far down that seating the bullet creates a "shoulder" underneath the bullet preventing it from being forced any deeper in the case by magazine spring pressure. Guess that works the same as a case cannalure.
Keep in mind we are referring to jacketed bullets, not lead. Jacked bullets have a very shallow groove. A roll crimp is virtually useless since the newer JSP bullets are really a "U" shape cavity. Using the Winchester or Remington 44-40 JSP bullets, the Redding Profile Crimp Die uses such a "U" shaped crimp. However, the Redding 44-40 crimp only works on 44-40 profile bullets, it does not work on other profile designs.
Yeap, like I was saying up above .....if the loader uses a die set that sized small to original 44-40 specs., and does not over expand.....even using a Win .4255" JSP, the bullet expands the neck back out as it is seated, leaving that "Shoulder" below the bullet base. This is what was often referred to as "Wasp-Waist" back in the day.
Some guy's first attempt at handloading a 44-40 is done with RCBS Cowboy dies. I did an experiment and discovered that the resizing die does not resize small enough, the expander plug over expands. When using the Winchester .4255" diameter JSP, there is virtually no neck retention. The only thing holding it is the poor roll crimp or a poor LFCD. Set-up for failure.
In the below photo, I have never had a retention failure.
On a side note, as was explained in the OP's topic on the other forum, he was having problems with other bullets as well.
44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40
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The little one that they cut copper pipe with only about 4-5 inches long
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Doesn't take much at all. Pretty much just touch the case and roll.
This one I used on small copper tubing for aircraft maintenance for 16 years. I removed the cutter, put a longer bolt through the blade with a nut. Put it in the drill and sanded off the sharp edge. Then I put it in the drill press and took a file to it, curving the edges round. Polished it with a scotch bright pad. Once you set the case inside, there really is no pressure added.
This is a very thin case, it only takes a tad bit to apply the "cannular". Too much could cause increases pressures or case fatigue, failure.
I have seen factory cases with a deep cannular and cases with very little.
Just be careful
44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40
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Sorry Guys, I never thought about anyone loading Jacketed bullets in .44-40 or .38-40, I started loading in 1960 and have never even considered that someone would load JSP in either cartridge.
I Hunted with a .44-40 Carbine early on, using Factory Jacketed ammo as required by CA game regs. Lead was always what was loaded. As far as I know back in those days the only way to get cartridge cases for rolling your own was from Factory ammo.
Don't even think you could get the .426dia bullets needed to reload an old .44-40 rifle or revolver.
Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.
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44-40 ... lots of memories shooting that in an original '73 and a genooine peacemaker ...
i caught mr. Hickok on you-tube this weekend shooting 44-40 in his 44 Mag revolver ... he mentioned it might be all you really need ... heh . i watch him because at least somebody has some ammunition ...
ken
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44-40 ... lots of memories shooting that in an original '73 and a genooine peacemaker ...
i caught mr. Hickok on you-tube this weekend shooting 44-40 in his 44 Mag revolver ... he mentioned it might be all you really need ... heh . i watch him because at least somebody has some ammunition ...
ken
44-40 or 44 Special?
44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40
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oops ... yep, 44 special in the 44 mag. gets me every time.
ken
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MarkinEllensburg
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