TC Handgun barrel oversized

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  • Last Post 03 July 2009
canalupo posted this 12 January 2009

Has anyone had trouble with a TC 30-30 win 14” barrel contender G2 handgun? I slugged barrel and found it is .3085, .309. My work could have mangled the test plug but I am leaning more towards the .309. Or is it possible for barrel to be out of round? Jacketed rounds hit close to dead center (3” group 50 yards). My test firing, with a flat nosed cast bullet, places every shot about 12 inches high and all over the map, no matter where the sights are set (10 to 14 inch groups).  I would expect the bullet to drop if the sights are set for the jacketed rifle  rounds. I have been loading 10.5 gr of 2400 in all my cast 30 caliber loadings for now. I am currently using commercial plain base, cast bullets in my Marlin 30-30, savage 308, and H&R boltaction 30-06 with decent results. Bullets are cast to .309. Any ideas as to how much larger I would need to cast bullets for the TC barrel, ideas on bullet design? What alloy would be best?

Thanks for any input.

Bob D

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GBertolet posted this 12 January 2009

I think the bigger the better for cast bullets for rifle or pistol,as long as the case will chamber without interferance.310 to 312 dia as cast for 30 cal is good. Although you didn't mention what bullet you are using, your powder charge of 10.5 gr of 2400 seems a bit light and could be a major factor in your poor grouping.

I have a 10 inch and  23 inch barrels in 30-30 barrel for my contender. Both mine shoot fairly decent. I like Varget powder (when I can find it) with the Lyman 311291 bullet with gas check. There are many good 30 cal bullet designs out there. I use the Lyman #2 alloy and am experimenting with heat treated WW to cut costs. If you are not going to push the velocity too hard you could go softer on the hardness.

I know I didn't answer your question completely but I hope the info is of some help.

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canalupo posted this 12 January 2009

G

Thanks for the info. Been using 165 gr flat nose commercial made bullets, plain bevel base. Local gun shop had a good deal on them ($40/1000). Probably 2% tin, 6% antimony and balance lead. I also managed to pick up 250 copper plated 45 230gr round nose for $20. I use the cast for mostly plinking and playing in the yard. I don't shoot in competition....yet. Trying to work my way up to some serious casting. Currently only collecting lead and equipment.

Have been working up some of my loads and I agree my rifle rounds need some tuning. I usually load 30-30 with the 10.5 gr 2400 and been working on the other calibers a little at a time. Some research on those bullets you mention is my next step. I am not a perfectionist so I have a tendency to limit pushing the envelope with things that go Boom.

I have been trying to keep the number of powders on hand at a minimum so I have been loading as many as possible with the limited powders I have. IMR 3031 for jacketed, Unique for semi auto and 2400. I also use the 2400 for 357/ 38 special and 35 Remington. I have been loading copper plated 158 gr rn hollow points in the 35 with some success. This is the same bullet I use in 357/38  If I could hit a 6 inch circle, with iron sights, offhand at 100yds I consider that success.

The weather up here in the Endless Mountains of Pennslvania usually stops my serious shooting in October when the snow flies and temps drop to teens and single digits for a high. Living in Pottsville you know the drill come October salt and shovel become you best friend and worst nightmare. I never wore out a pair of gloves until I moved up here

Once again thanks for info.

Bob D.

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Ed Harris posted this 12 January 2009

About 1984 or so I bought a ten-inch Contender pistol barrel chambered for .45 ACP. It shot jacketed wadcutters and FMJ hardball OK, but leaded to a faire thee well with any cast, despite the barrel being smooth as a baby's bottom.

SO I slugged it to see what was up. Turned out it was a .450 bore and .460 groove with 20 inch twist. I had Wayne Schwartz punch it out to .45-70. I had a “hand cannon” before J.D. Jones even invented the term.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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hunterspistol posted this 06 February 2009

     As near as I can tell, TC made all their 32 caliber barrels capable of using  .309 bullets.  I use an early  Lyman 311008 two cavity mold for my 32-20.  It has a .311 bore also. A Lyman 311008 mould is a 115 grain that I size down to .311.  I get great accuracy. Also, the RCBS 98 grain is light enough for my 10” barrel (with 2400 powder).  According to cast bullet info, you should be .002 over bore size, that's how I'm doing it- to their specs.  

     If you're having that wide open groups with a 14” barrel, I'd suggest seating the bullet out as far as the pistol can be closed then, seat it another 1/16 turn shorter on the seating die threads. Should put you about .005 from the rifling. After that adjustment, try working your powder loads up in one tenth grain increments for the smallest group.

     By the way, I weigh my bullets before sizing, when they're clean. The 115 to 130 grainers should come out to within 7 tenths of a grain  of each other, from fresh wheelweight.  This is way too picky for some shooters but, I get match grade ammo from lead bullets this way.  Theres an RCBS spire point 30 that weighs 130 grains, not sure, may be a 7.62 mould. It's gas check rifle style.

     I'd try the seating depth first, TC has short and long chambers in their barrels- sort of like the car you buy on Monday or Friday. Or so that rumour goes, but all mine seem to be fairly close to SAAMI.                             Good Luck

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hunterspistol posted this 06 February 2009

:coffee  Another question, which moulds are you using?  Light bullets are going to work better and Loverin style bullets will get you farther with a TC, supposedly.  It's working for me anyway.

     Another thought, I'm guessing you're using open sights. I shoot a scope on mine, it shows you the actual movement of the sight radius, magnified. Makes lots of difference in your technique too.

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canalupo posted this 06 February 2009

Hunter Not really casting anything yet working on collecting gear and scrounging lead. I have been shooting iron sights from a bench rest. I already tried to push bullet out to the start of rifling. I made a guage out of a old brass/bullet and kept working it down with the reloading dies until I could just barely see where the rifling hit the bullet. I used a grease pencil to color bullet and that gave a pretty good mark. That seemed to tighten up the group a little. I am down to a ten inch group at 50 yds instead of a 20 inch group all over the target. The bullets I am using are 165 grain commercial flat nose ( I also use in my Marlin). I checked a sample of the bullets and noticed the first driving band is .308 the backband is a loose .309 probably .3087.

I was thinking the lee TL-312-160 for a mold for now. Its cheap and if it works I could get a good idea what I need to improve  loads. It is a tumble lube design for a 303 brit. I plan on sizing it to .311. Most of my shooting and practice is geared towards hunting. The lighter bullets will be fine for small game but deer and bear need a little more punch.

I am working on installing a Truglow Red dot scope I swiped from my turkey gun. I didn't care for it on a shot gun anyway.

Thanks for the info every little bit helps.

Bob D

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chboats posted this 12 February 2009

Bob

Have you checked the throat of the 30-30 barrel? I bought a new TC 30-30 barrel that the grove size was .308 but the bore was .304 so I sent it back to TC and they replaced it with another barrel that is .300/.308 which is great but there is no throat. It tapers from the case neck diameter of .335 to .300 in less than a 1/16 inch. I don't know if this is standard for a 30-30 chamber. It will fire factory ammunition OK but CBs are all over the target. When I scrape together enough money to buy a throating reamer I plan to ream it to 1 1/2 degree throat, which should improve the CB accuracy

Carl

May they all go through the same hole.

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corerf posted this 12 February 2009

I have sold my 1980's vintage 30-30 super 14 due to inherent throating issues which have grown way worse as reported by MANY owners. It did NOT shoot well with any factory or handloaded JACKETED ammo, any bullet weight, etc.

The factory 30-30 has the worst (reported) throating issues only eliminated by going to custom barrel. If you like 30-30, kep the barrel and sell it as soon as Bullberry builds you a good one. It's not that expensive, you jst need to wait a few months to have them build it. Accuracy, real accuracy, is guarantte and Fred will throat for your needs, CB's at 130-170gr at your request.

I personally have yet to shoot a super 14 factory barrel that shoots well. Customs shoot one hole with just about whatever you stuff in them.

My two cents, maybe only worth 2 cents. Good Luck

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canalupo posted this 13 February 2009

Corerf Thanks for the info. The barrel is a recently purchased barrel with a new G2 model contender.

Does the throat issue apply to newer barrels or all the barrels they make in that caliber?

I think I will definitly look into a custom barrel or see if I could get this one worked up to a different round. I have heard these bull barrels can be opened up to a number of larger calibers. I have a friend of a friend of a friend..... you know what I mean.

Thanks

Bob D

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canalupo posted this 13 February 2009

Carl I have not checked the throat, I have noticed that the bullets  I have been using are .300 until the first grease groove band ( which is .308 the back band is about .3087). I think they are too small for my purpose. I set the bullet in the shell casing just enough to hit the rifling with the first band ( the bullets are commercial bought 165gr flat nose plain base, got them cheap). This managed to get me a large group around ten inches. I think I need a much bigger bullet that is a uniform diameter from the ogive down to the bands. I have been toying with the idea of getting a tumble lube design bullet mold from Lee at around .312 and sizing to .311. The mold would be cheap for an experiment before I replace barrel (see post above). As I said above I have a friend of a friend with all the gear to rethroat or open up barrel. I am currently working on gathering casting gear and scrounging lead so my “experiment” may be on hold for a little while.

Thanks Bob D

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corerf posted this 13 February 2009

All 30-30 in fact have trash throats, no throat or a forcing cone! Some are good, but very few. TC as a whole is not making quality barrels at all. But theres hope. Again custom has gotten much cheaper. If it was anything but a 30-30, you could rechamber and cut the trash out to make a great, fantastic barrel that becomes very likely a one holer. The 30-30 has no friends longer with a rim that it can be the parent chamber for. Mike Bellm has a fix but IMHO it's dangerous as you push the barrel to bursting point and need to use jackets. If you can't get it to shoot with any length of bullet, and diam. and load, then it should go to gunbroker and let someone who will use it for other than cast bullets take on TC if they are not happy with 1MOA on it's best day. it's unfortunate but TC will send it back to you again and say it's within spec. Thats hogwash, their spc is not a good spec, thats for sure. CAll Bullberry in Utah, see what September has to say about a super 14 from them in blue. Tell her its for CB's and you wnat accuracy. Thats all they build, accuracy. You probably can get $200 out of the barrel, no matter how much wear you apply over the next 3 months. Then order a Bullberry and wait for a $265 work of art to manifest itself in the mail.

Aside from dangerous rounds, the only other option for a 30-30 in a contender frame is rebore the barrel to 35, 37, 40, 45 cal. Thats not going to be cheap, you could buy two new custom barrrels for the price of fixing the old one.

If economics matter to you, sell it and get a custom or a used barrel worth rechamebring. You could get any other 30 cal used barrel id good shape but throats gone and have it rechamebred to 30-30. Thats wisdom but it will likely never shoot as well as a custom and you'll burn way more powder thru your life (TC chambers are the BIGGEST int he industry!!!). Bullberry chambers are sub SAAMI, that means that the .002/,003 less diam. translates into early pressure signs. You'll develop max vel, at lower charges and that means less $$ per shot for equal performance. My hornet does one gr. less that anyone elses due to tight chamber. I blow primers at a grain less than averybody, due to chamber dimensions. Thats a good thing at least in my opinion. I have less case stretch and growth. Case in point, using Freds 6mm bullberry wildcat as example. Him Ackley improved version shoots 150 fps slower than the std. version due to the 44kpsi pressure limit on the TC. You burn more powder with smae bullet weight to get the charge density to the level for best operation due to the larger case volume. The STD. version is more efficient and transfers pressure to the bullet rather than filling the “larger chamber", making more fps per load with less powder. The only help the ackley change made was with case lifespan due to 30-30 shoulderless design.

I digress. Bullberry customs are the only true fiscally responsible answer if you want anything beyond “click, bang, hey it went off, yeah!” performance with the 30-30! I know much of what I have typed is regrading jacketed bullets but the same math applies to CB's. Support the bullet properly, have a good crown and it should fly straight, yes?? You DONT have adequate bullet support in yor barrel, the throat is big enough to drive a car thru, thats a fact! Deep too. You should not have to seat a bullet out with 1 tenth inch in the case to get a 150 gr bullet to touch the lands. Your TC, I bet you are hard pressed to get a 150 to ever touch the lands. I'll even bet you cant. The 30-30 doesn't shoot past 170gr “usually” per design, so a longer 220gr bullet to fix the engagement problem is not an option. That should tell a huge story.

Bullberry may be able to fill the order fast as they are barrel stubs (remnants of 30 inch barrel blanks left over from longer barrels), if you could do with 13 inch, it's cheaper than 14, shoots basically the same and will cost you a few bucks less, less wait for the production as well.

Be advised, I don't have an interest in Bullberry. It's just everyone else is more expensive and performance doesn't necessarily follow the $$.

TC makes fine receivers, but the barrels except rimfire stink badly, thats encores and contenders. I have 3 cont. and 1 encore. I have 1 (of 7 total) factory barrel and it's going to become a 445 supermag with threaded brake super 14, it's currently a 44 mag, shoots poorly and has only 25 rounds thru it. The 445 will cut out the non-concentric, lopsided throat/forcing cone and give a real rifle throat with taper and a clean set of rifling to engage with the new chamber. I took a 357 mag and made it a max, went from 2 inch groups at 100 to 1/2 inch groups. Thats a pistol mind you. It does it all day long, no matter what load gets stuffed into it. I have a custom k-hornet pistol that with moderate vel. loads, it's does 1 inch with 34 gr jackets at 100. Its ten inches long! It's a bullberry. It will shrink the groups further when there's no wind. Most hornet bolt actions cant do 1 moa with 24 inches of barrel on a rest.

Just some food for thought. I love my TC's, thats virtually all I shoot. But the barrels are rotten, unless you get lucky with the factory. Their custom shop stinks just as bead, but they charge you 200 bucks more for the extra care they use to make a bad barrel. Extra money, extra bad and even more buyers remorse.

Best of luck to you. it's not the bore, it's the chamber and throat.

Last comment. Full lenght size everything. Its headspace relies on the rim, the TC cant do a crush fit. Theres a barrel to fram gap to consider and the growth of the cartidge must be factored in during setback of case at ignition. You must NOT close that gap to less than .002 inch. If you neck size, the gap is closed. No growth means case distortion to the Nth degree and it's gonna shoot real BAD. FL size EVERYTHING you shoot with TC products, bump the shoulder back a thou or two. YOU CANT NECK SIZE EVER. It wont shoot worth spit and you'll eventually lock the action with a round after firing and stick a case. Thats a trip to the smith and 50 bucks!

Good Luck. Thats my free 50 cent sermon. I am pretty passionate about accuracy and my TC's. Like some of you are with 03A3's I am sure.

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CB posted this 14 February 2009

I have been using the Ranch Dog TLC311-165-RF for my T/C Conder Super 14 in 30/30 and also in my Spanish FR8.

This bullet design was intended use in a Marlin 336 Rifle in 30-30.

For me it works really grat in my Contender and my FR8

Jerry

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canalupo posted this 14 February 2009

Jerry The ranch dog mold sounds similar to the lee tumble lube design. I also shoot a marlin 30-30. I may just go for broke with the ranch dog mold it won't go to waste and I may be able to use it for both toys. Thanks Bob D

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chboats posted this 14 February 2009

Bob

You should make a casting of the throat or tap an over sized bullet into the throat to see what it is. From what Corerf said his had an oversized long throat. My problem is that it has no throat. The chamber goes from the case mouth to .300, full rifling height in less than .060 inch. AFTER I bought my barrel I saw a Bullberry at the range, what a difference. I may be able to salvage mine because I can cut the throat I want. My barrel was bought in 2008.

Carl

May they all go through the same hole

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runfiverun posted this 15 February 2009

the problem here is the boolits. i have the same mold that he is buying for his boolits and it doesn't fit anything.has a bevel base severe enough to accept a g/c,and a nose at least 2 thou undersized... it doesn't even paper patch well.

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canalupo posted this 30 March 2009

Finally received my  lee mold TL-312-160 (bullet casts .311 with the small tumble lube bands). Made for a gas check but I shot them plain base.

Cast some test bullets from wheel weight over the weekend. It seems the bullet size was a big part of the problem. The mold bullet reduced the size of group to an oval 4 to 8 inches with iron sights at 50 yds from a barrel rest (shooting stick). That seems big but was a vertical string of ten shots. Used 10 grs of 2400. I consider that pretty good for these old peepers.

I think it is a matter of playing with the powder to get it down smaller and maybe using a real bench rest (Ha.. Ha... I don't recall seeing any bench rests in the woods).

Bob D

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runfiverun posted this 30 March 2009

change your powder 10 grs of 2400 is not going to give you consistent velocities. 20 grs is better with 2400. if you only want to shoot 1300 fps go to unique or red dot. your gun should do good to 1900 fps or so.

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hunterspistol posted this 30 March 2009

 You'll need load data specifically for a Lee Bullet, I've gotten into a little bind over this. My manual for a Lyman shows 15-17 grains of 2400 in a 175 grain bullet.

But, to load a Lee Bullet, use Lee load data-there's a serious difference!:coffee

PS: Good to hear you're having some luck with cast bullets!

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JSH posted this 19 June 2009

I can't add much to what has already been said. corerf's comment's on FL sizing are correct for the most part. I have found FL sizing to give the best results when using TOP end loads. As to cast with what I shoot with a 165 and a dose of SR4759. I found FL sizing every time to be a negative. I neck size three time, then just kiss the neck shoulder junction on the fourth. On the fourth sizing, groups do open and I don't shoot them past 100M. I have slugged and done chamber cast on my 30-30 factory TC pipe. I doubt TC has ever made two chamberings that were even close to identical. That is one reason I don't give much input to sizing. MikeB has some very valid points when it comes to TC's with out a doubt. But, for the most part he is pushing a top end load most of the time, so FL sizing has merit. CB's and factory TC barrels can make one, well expand their vocabulary,lol. Fit is everything as to brass and CB's. Worst case of leading I EVER had was with store bought CB's from a major supply. Leaded stuff that was a proven CB shooter. Sizing tehcniques are going to be different barrel to barrel as to what they like. Accuracy loads are usually pretty close though, powder wise. Like mentioned above one of the custom made barrels will save alot on time and frustration. My two favorite chamberings in the TC are the 30-20 and the 30-30. I have to much brass and time commited to the two factory barrels to change now. jeff

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hunterspistol posted this 20 June 2009

     For info on TCs, Contenders and the loads, some of the gentlemen on this site have been extremely helpful.  http://www.go2gbo.coms/index.php/board,24.0.html>http://www.go2gbo.coms/index.php/board,24.0.html

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