38-55 "short" ??

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  • Last Post 23 November 2010
Balhincher posted this 04 January 2009

A recent revision in Indiana hunting laws allows hunting with rifles chambered for cartridges of limited power.  The maximum cartridge length allowed is 1.625 inches and it must be at least 35 caliber.  This matches almost perfectly a .357 Maximum.  

Having a single shot H&R rifle in 38-55 I have been speculating about experimenting with a “38-55 Shortâ€? made by trimming cases to this maximum legal length.  This would require cutting off about .46 inches from the standard 38-55 case.  I'm wondering if this could be safely and effectively fired in a 38-55 chamber in a similar way that 38 Specials can be shot in a .357 magnum or 32 S&Ws fired in a .327 magnum. 

Some possible problems with this idea:  

Bullet jump ”€œ If seated to the crimp groove the bullet would jump a long way before reaching the rifling.  Could this be reduced to a tolerable jump by seating the bullet long with most of it outside the case mouth?  If seated long will the increased powder space allow loadings approaching regular 38-55 levels?  

Case taper - While the .357 magnum case is straight, the 38-55 does have a slight taper so at a point 1.62 inches from the head the diameter is a little larger than at the case mouth.  Will this cause a problem in gripping the bullet or aligning the base with the bore axis?  Or does the case increase in thickness enough (or too much) to offset this taper?

  While looking up a load in my Hornady Handbook, I stumbled on a cartridge I had forgotten about the 375 Super Magnum.  Developed for metallic silhouette shooting it is based on a .375 Winchester case and has a length of 1.61 inches.  This is almost exactly the round I have been “dreaming upâ€? and proves that new ideas probably aren't new after all.

  I'm wondering if any of the CBA Forum readers have ever heard of using the .375 Super cartridge in a 38-55 or .375 Winchester rifle.  I suspect the pressures that the .375 Super is loaded to are far greater than the 38-55 so full loads may not be prudent in many (maybe all?) 38-55s.  But the H&R single shot is offered in many modern rifle cartridges such as 25-06 and is probably stronger than most 38-55's.  I'd be very interested in any comments especially those pointing out why this is a wacky idea and why I'll likely blow myself up if I try it.

 

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JetMech posted this 04 January 2009

While I doubt you'ld “blow yourself up", you could encounter serious chamber erosion. The other problem is that the .375 Super uses a true .375 bullet, the H&R 38-55 barrels are cut to .380 groove diameter.

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jimkim posted this 04 January 2009

Is the law written “maximum cartridge” length or “maximum case” length? If it is maximum cartridge length you would be limited to 44 magnum/45 Colt length cartridges.

I would probably just get another barrel in 44 mag.

If you are determined to try this I would suggest having a machinist make an insert for your chamber to protect it from erosion. You would need to remember it is there before trying to load it with standard 38-55 ammo. To remove it you would need a broken case extractor.

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Balhincher posted this 04 January 2009

The 1.625” max length is for the case not the cartridge.

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linoww posted this 05 January 2009

Ken Heber up in Canada B.C. shot a “38(or 375?) Heber"  about 10 years ago.I shot with him in Vancouver WA once and it was cute 1.5” "ish" little case.There is some load data he used in back issues of The Fouling Shot.He breach seated his bullets.in Schuetzen style guns though.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Crooked Creek posted this 28 January 2009

Balhincher wrote: 

Have Case taper - While the .357 magnum case is straight, the 38-55 does have a slight taper so at a point 1.62 inches from the head the diameter is a little larger than at the case mouth.  Will this cause a problem in gripping the bullet or aligning the base with the bore axis?  Or does the case increase in thickness enough (or too much) to offset this taper?

  While looking up a load in my Hornady Handbook, I stumbled on a cartridge I had forgotten about the 375 Super Magnum.  Developed for metallic silhouette shooting it is based on a .375 Winchester case and has a length of 1.61 inches.  This is almost exactly the round I have been “dreaming up��? and proves that new ideas probably aren't new after all.

  I'm wondering if any of the CBA Forum readers have ever heard of using the .375 Super cartridge in a 38-55 or .375 Winchester rifle.  I suspect the pressures that the .375 Super is loaded to are far greater than the 38-55 so full loads may not be prudent in many (maybe all?) 38-55s.  But the H&R single shot is offered in many modern rifle cartridges such as 25-06 and is probably stronger than most 38-55's.  I'd be very interested in any comments especially those pointing out why this is a wacky idea and why I'll likely blow myself up if I try it.  I have a Dan Wesson .375 Super Mag and have formed cases from both .375 Win. and 30-30 Win. They recommend using the .375 Win. case because of it's heavier construction for higher pressures. I have sectioned both cases and the 30-30 is thinner farther back than the .375 brass (and the head area of the .375 case is heavier). Also, expanding the 30-30 up will “naturally" have a further thinning effect. While I have two 38-55 rifles, I have never sectioned one of those cases to compare wall thickness to the above two cases, but I would assume the 38-55 case would be constructed more like the 30-30 case. I have experienced no problems in “bullet grip” using either case. Starting with the .375 Win. may give you more durable, and extended life cases. Another tip: Rather than buy, and wait for custom dies, I combined parts from two sets of Hornady dies for a seating die that would crimp the shorter .375 Super Mag case. I bought a set of .375 Win. dies (38-55 would work too, if Hornady has them?, since they are virtually the same thing). I took the “sliding seater/crimper head” from the seating die and reassembled it into a shorter seater die body from another Hornady die set I had on hand. It happened to be from a 7.62 x 39 die set, but any of the shorter bodies should work. While there is not an abundance of published loading data for the .375 Super Mag., and you would not want to use “top end loads” for what you are trying to accomplish, I would think if you begin with the starting loads for the .375 Super Mag., you would have velocities similar to the older 38-55 loads, which has proven for many years to be a deer getter. Best of luck, let us know how it works out if you proceed with the project.     

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Balhincher posted this 28 January 2009

Thanks to all of you who have posted useful comments.  I have this on my list of projects to tinker with when the weather gets a little more temperate.  I will post any results when I get around to trying it.

Crooked Creek:  Your comments about cases and loading a .375 Super are much appreciated.  I am not trying to turn this rifle into a magnum but simply find a working cartridge that meets Indiana law for length.  A velocity in the neighborhood of the old 38-55 seems fine to me.

I am a bit concerned about the comment about chamber erosion with the short case.  Is there a reason this should be worse than short cases in a .357 mag or 32 HRM that Ed Harris writes about?  Has anyone seen this happen in a rifle using shortened cases?

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Crooked Creek posted this 28 January 2009

It will be interesting to see how others weigh in on the chamber erosion question. I would think it would take an awful lot of shooting before true erosion of the steel would happen, especially so with the lower pressure loads that are planned. You will have a build up of fouling ahead of the case mouth (depending on the number of rounds fired) that may present some difficulty in chambering a full length cartridge until cleaned out, but that would be of little consequence given your intended use. I just don't see that (erosion) being an issue. If it were, wouldn't you see erosion just ahead of the case mouth in the cylinders of any revolver, regardless of case length ? Now, I understand what is often referred to as “flame cutting” of the top strap between the cylinder and barrel with high intensity  cartridges (as what happened with the Ruger 357 Maximum revolver), but that's not what we're talking about here, no ? Maybe Ed Harris could shed some experienced light on the subject (?).

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Pepe Ray posted this 01 February 2009

I support CrookedCreek's posting 100%.

Pepe Ray

Only in His name.

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Balhincher posted this 16 May 2009

38-55 “short” update:

The idea of using a shortened case in a 38-55 rifle to meet the requirement for a legal deer cartridge has shown promise with some early results.  Without getting into a lot of detail, cases were made having the maximum legal length of 1.625 inches by fireforming 30-30 cases, whacking them off with a Dremel tool, and trimming to final length.  Starting with pretty mild loads and working up, groups were acceptable for hunting accuracy from the beginning.  Three different cast bullets have been tried so far and all have given decent groups.  The rifle used for the groups shown is a Winchester (Miroku) high wall with a 28” octagon barrel shot with the factory tang peep sights.  The three bullets were seated long in the shortened case and the resulting cartridge has almost the same OAL as the regular 38-55.  (See attached photo below).  This leaves about the same powder space as the full length round as well.  The three bullets tried so far are the Ranch Dog 240 grain .375 GC SWC, the NEI 375265GC, and the RCBS 250 gr SWC GC. 

 

The three targets shown below were shot at 50 yards with the Ranch Dog bullet and 20 grains of MP 5744.  This is a couple of grains below maximum for a regular 38-55 and probably below max for the short round as well.  I haven't chronographed any of these short loads yet.  This load is probably in the 1300-1400 fps range judging from the load data I have studied.  The targets shown have a 6 inch bull and the superimposed grid has one inch squares.  The three groups were 1.6 inches, .8 inches, and 1.3 inches.

In limited shooting with the short round, no sign of chamber fouling or difficult seating of standard length rounds has been noticed.  But only around fifty loads have been fired to date.   Except for load development and then sighting in, only a few shots will be fired per year with this short round so fouling or chamber erosion shouldn't become a problem.  

About a week ago I received the Lyman / Ideal 375166 mold from the special group buy discussed in the forum.  It casts a plain base bullet weighing about 318 grains including lube from an alloy of wheelweights with a little tin.  This bullet is longer and will let me seat it in the short case so that it touches or is very close to the lands in the throat.  I haven't shot any groups with this bullet in the short cases yet but hope to get even better accuracy with it.

 

 

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runfiverun posted this 16 May 2009

why didn't you just use a 375 supermag.?

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CB posted this 16 May 2009

I like it!! Definitely an article for the FS.

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Balhincher posted this 17 May 2009

runfiverun wrote: why didn't you just use a 375 supermag.?

I assume you mean instead of making the short case from a 30-30 case.  I did some checking for .375 supermag cases and couldn't find a ready supply.  Nor could I find any 375 Winchester cases.  Since I only needed a few cases to test the idea, I just used what I had on hand, the 30-30 cases.  And I didn't want to ruin any of my limited supply of 38-55 cases.

Using 375 supermag cases or cutting off 375 Winchester cases may be better than the 30-30 cases and I may try those in the future now that the basic idea seems likely to work.

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Crooked Creek posted this 18 May 2009

I think what is being said is that you basically have a 375 Super Mag, since it's case length is 1.6". Like you, I have not seen a ready source for pre-made 375 Super Mag cases. I have made my 375 Super Mag cases from both 30-30 and 375 Win cases and both work fine. I know you are not going to be operating at anywhere near the pressures of the Super Mag (even though the “new” High Wall is strong), but I'll pass along a caution anyway, just in case you (or other readers) do start with the 375 Win case. The 375 Win cases are made heavier (thicker) than 30-30 or 38-55 cases thus, they have less internal capacity. So, the same powder charge in the made from 375 Win case will develop more pressure than the same load in the made from 30-30 or 38-55 case. I can see (and measure) the difference in my Dan Wesson Super Mag. I agree your exercise would make for an interesting FS article. It will also be interesting to see the chrono reuslts. From your photos on the 1/10th” grid paper, your OAL would be roughly .150” less than the full length case to the right, taking up a little more of the available case capacity. Based on the data in the Accurate #2 manual for the 240 gr FNGC bullet, it would seem your velocity may be more like 1400-1500 FPS or a little more with your 20 gr load and 28” barrel. I may play around with your idea in my High Wall using my Super Mag cases with my Lyman 335 gr plain base bullet to see what happens. Good luck and keep us posted.....I'll be looking for the FS article !

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DonH posted this 01 June 2009

Being an Indiana resident myself, my thoughts on this are that it is an interesting idea but also that if checked in the field by a conservation officer, hope that he is gun-savvy and open-minded. If not, he may make an issue of the true chambering of the rifle and that issue could be costly.

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Balhincher posted this 01 June 2009

DonH wrote: Being an Indiana resident myself, my thoughts on this are that it is an interesting idea but also that if checked in the field by a conservation officer, hope that he is gun-savvy and open-minded. If not, he may make an issue of the true chambering of the rifle and that issue could be costly. A CO who is not particularly gun savvy is something I was concerned about myself.  I have already written to the Indiana DNR and received a reply about the 38-55 short.  They ruled that it does indeed meet the requirements for a legal cartridge for deer hunting in Indiana.  I plan to have a copy of that letter with me just in case.

Actually, this illustrates my dissatisfaction with the Indiana rules for defining a legal cartridge.  The intent of allowing some cartridges to be used in a rifle for deer hunting was to limit those cartridges to ones having the same “power and ballistics” as firearms already legal.  At the time of the change, Indiana allowed hunting with handguns, shotguns, and muzzle loading rifles.  There is no established upper limit on the cartridges that may be used in handguns: if you can stuff it in a Contender and hang on to it while you yank the trigger, it is legal.  And while I have never seen a rule in the “Indiana Hunting Guide” limiting the barrel length of a handgun (there may be a max length, I have just never seen it printed) a 14 inch length barrel is legal for sure.  So a legal handgun can be essentially a carbine with no butt stock.  Handgun rules aside, if you consider the energy and velocity of a 12 ga sabot load or a modern in line muzzle loader, (the Savage smokeless ML is legal in Indiana) the envelope for defining a legal cartridge for use in rifles includes a lot of cartridges.

While I understand the value in establishing a conservative definition of a legal rifle cartridge, it should at least produce consistent results.  There is someone offering rifles that are chambered for cartridges made from shortened WSM/WSSM cases necked up to the required .357 caliber.  They claim a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps with a 200 grain bullet.  (http://www.bfgcartridges.com/358BFG.html>http://www.bfgcartridges.com/358BFG.html)  Compare this to the performance of a 38-55 and you see why rules that don't allow the older round but make the WSSM based cartridge legal are not achieving consistent results.  Personally, I think hunting safety is more dependent on the behavior of hunters than the type of gun they are using so I am not particularly alarmed about the 358 BFG.  Some guys hunting with a .410 slug gun would be as dangerous as a jug of nitroglycerin in a donkey cart while other hunters who follow safe practices could be hunting with a 30-378 Weatherby and be perfectly safe. 

I do not advocate taking off all limits on the rifle cartridges that may be used in Indiana to hunt deer, but would like to see the rules modified to allow such cartridges as the venerable 38-55 Win.  Then I won't have to cut a half inch off the case to produce a legal round with essentially identical ballistics just to hunt deer with my 38-55.

 

 

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silverbuzzard posted this 28 April 2010

Heres the skinny on the leagalities  of Indiana hunting.

The case AND THE GUN chamber can only be the max length.If you take a 300 mag into the field and shoot cut down loads, you will still be illegal because the GUN is capable.......

My buddy gets around this by the following method.

He had a Utah company make a Encore barrel with a chamber for the Winchester 25SSM. The bore is 35cal. He uses that case and necks up to 35. He gets over a crony 2400 fps for a 225 grain Nosler Accubond ,Thats 358 Win country.

Now,with those parameters, lets figure to get a Marlin etc and rebarrel?

I use my MArlin 44 mag lever in Indiana but would love to shoot the above in a lever gun

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Daryl S posted this 23 November 2010

silverbuzzard wrote: Heres the skinny on the leagalities  of Indiana hunting.

The case AND THE GUN chamber can only be the max length.If you take a 300 mag into the field and shoot cut down loads, you will still be illegal because the GUN is capable.......

My buddy gets around this by the following method.

He had a Utah company make a Encore barrel with a chamber for the Winchester 25SSM. The bore is 35cal. He uses that case and necks up to 35. He gets over a crony 2400 fps for a 225 grain Nosler Accubond ,Thats 358 Win country.

   

 

When the reason for the law doesn't work any more, ie; reduced power/range - isn't the next step the elimination of hunting altogether? - or if absolutely necessary to control ungulate #'s,  futher restrictions be imposed? Like shotguns only?

Just curious

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