32-20 in 30 Carbine

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  • Last Post 12 November 2008
Crooked Creek posted this 01 August 2008

I'm going to be trying 32-20 cases in my 30 Carbine Ruger Blackhawk. Has anyone used Starline brass in 32-20 ? I've read some articles and I know Paco Kelley did something on this a number of years ago.

 Here's my dilemma: I picked up a 50 case pack of W-W 32-20 brass yesterday, locally, and they did not have Starline brass. While I don't have the dimensions with me as I type this, both the OAL and the diameter just ahead of the rim were considerably less that the standard specs. Specs. show the 32-20 to be only .002” less than the 30 Carbine ahead of the web, which would not bother me. The case length bothers me in that if they met spec., I could trim back to get very close to the 30 carbine headspace ring in the cylinder and still crimp the 32-20 case mouth. Why am I concerned about this ? When I have tried cast bullets in the 30 Carbine case with a taper crimp (for headspacing), I end up with a “ring of lead” on the backside of the headspace ring at the end of the chamber. That “ring of lead” build up (which happens after the first one to two cylinder fulls) causes subsequent rounds to “headspace long” and will tie up the cylinder when an affected round makes it's way around to the recoil plate prior to locking up in the firing position. A long explanation of what is happening and why I want to try the 32-20 route. The rims can be a little too thick on the 32-20, but I can handle that.

I've heard the Starline brass is a little thicker in the neck, which is also a benefit. Any and all advise/experience in this “conversion" will be appreciated, but mainly looking for input on how close the 32-20 Starline brass is to standard published case dimensions before I go and order some from Midway and find I have the same issues. 

Rog

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Ed Harris posted this 15 August 2008

I don't think the .30 Carbine Blackhawk has enough clearance between the rear of the cylinder and the rear face of the frame opening to accept the thickness of the .32-20 rim.  If memory serves, the .30 Carbine cylinders are chambered such that case heads fit flush with the rear of the cylinder, and the chambers have no rim seat.  You may just try a sized case in the chambers and see if the cylinder will even rotate all thr way around without binding.  I think not...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Thumbcocker posted this 15 August 2008

If you go over to cast boolits and check out the articles by members in the cast pics section there is an article by “Begal” on cast in the .30 carb BH that goes into this in detail. The article also has lots of loads.

 I am just getting started with my .30 cab BH so I will be watching your progress. 

 

Good luck

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Crooked Creek posted this 16 August 2008

The 50 W-W 32-20 cases I have were too thick in the rim and would lock up the cylinder, as Ed has suggested. I turned about .015” off of the back of the rims of all 50 cases and they now fit fine with free cylinder rotation, though I have yet to load and fire these in my gun. I have not yet purchased Starline brass, but intend to give it a try. I've heard it has thinner rims (precluding the need to turn) and thicker necks (.006” to .007” compared to my W-W cases at .004".....50+% thicker!) for longer life and fewer splits.

Thumbcocker, I had been to the http://www.castpics.net>www.castpics.net site and agree it has great information on the 30 Carbine. Three articles by John Goins (AKA: “Beagle"); 'Cast in the M-1 Carbine', 'Long range 30 Carbine load', and 'Cast in the 30 Carbine pistol' pretty much cover the field, including cast bullets in excess of 150 grs. I had also found a couple of threads there that I jumped into asking the same questions I had here. Others have successfully used the 32-20 brass in the Blackhawk. In my opinion, having a “rimmed 30 Carbine” is just nice. I modified my 30 Blackhawk with a Bisley trigger and a Super Blackhawk hammer. Other than stoning the sears on both and adding a lighter spring kit, the grip frame had to be “milled out” to allow the trigger to fit. Good luck working with your 30. Another site I found useful is http://www.lasc.us>www.lasc.us , which is the Los Angeles Silhouette Club site. Some good info on cast there and good articles by Ed Harris, Joe Brennen, and others.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 August 2008

Crooked Creek wrote: The 50 W-W 32-20 cases I have were too thick in the rim and would lock up the cylinder, as Ed has suggested. I turned about .015” off of the back of the rims of all 50 cases and they now fit fine with free cylinder rotation,


Consider that if you cut the excess off of the FRONT of the rim, that would make the brass to seat deeper,  effectively longer, and help fill in the little gap at the front of the case/vs chamber length, which sometimes fills in with a lead ring.

One complication from cutting the front of the rim is that in some firearm, such as a rifle, that might mess up the relationship with the extractor.

Also, since the case still reads ” 32-20” , it might give excess headspace in someone that thought it was still a 32-20.

Overall, I gotta say that what you are playing with gives me ( as my ol buddy Charlie says ) bad vibes.  Kinda like putting Bullseye into a 4831 cannister, and hoping that 14 years later you will remember that you did that.

And believe me, it is hard for * me * to cast stones; when it comes to potentially blowing myself up, I live in a very shaky glass house (g) ..

regards, ken campbell, iowa

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Crooked Creek posted this 17 August 2008

Ken, I don't take it at all as you “casting stones", but rather as sage advise and a reminder to all that may read any thread of the potential for “unintended consequences” of our actions, whatever they may be. So, I applaud and thank you for that. Hopefully, I can ease your mind, at least a little, as relates to my specific “experiment” here with the 30 Carbine Blackhawk. While I have not yet had the opportunity (hopefully pleasure?) of pulling a trigger on one of these 32-20 cased loads, from what I've read in several places this is not that uncommon a practice, there having been good success by “Paco” Kelley, John Goins, and others. These loads are not intended to replace or duplicate loads using 30 Carbine brass at 30 Carbine pressure levels, but rather to have some sane and enjoyable cast bullet plinking loads with 32-20 pressures (the ears will be appreciative).

As to some of your specific comments and concerns: As far removing material from the back of the case, two things come into play. 1) It was easier, and faster, to reference the front side of the rim against the face of the lathe chuck and run the cutter to the primer pocket and back. I've read of other methods, but this worked best for me with the 50 cases. 2) Most of the headstamp (all, in some cases) was removed, which makes it less likely that someone would “identify” and use these cases in a firearm chambered for a 32-20, should they ever “get out of my hands". I have clearly marked my ammo cases as “30 Carbine Rimmed - Cast Bullets” so I don't forget in the future. In 40 years of reloading I've learned the lesson (the hard way) that you mention, of looking back at some loads from long ago and wondering what they are. Maintaining focus and diligence in labeling and record keeping are paramount when you are engaging in something having the potential for a disaster, such as the case with any hand loading, especially so when loading for multiple firearms of the same caliber. As for changing the headspace to a dangerous level for other firearms: From what I have gleaned, from several sources, the Starline 32-20 brass has thinner rims and will allow the Blackhawk (most.....tolerances?) cylinder to rotate through the cycle without the need to modify the case rims. If this is true (a big IF?), then my modified W-W cases would show no more potential for headspace problems than would virgin Starline cases. I will know for sure, once I procure some Starline brass. As related to the case length benefiting from trimming the front side of the rim, the 32-20 should be , by standard specifications (my W-W were not!), longer than the 30 Carbine, which would allow for “tailoring” the length to the chamber headspace ring by trimming the cases from the front end, Again, I will know when I get the Starline stuff.

Sorry for getting “long winded", but I thought it necessary to expound a little on what I'm doing since this thread has grown with some very good input from my original question.

Thanks again Ken for the very wise and timely cautionary notes that all should abide by.

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Magnum Wheel Man posted this 03 September 2008

sorry... as a new guy... I don't want to pick... but I have to ask why use 32-20 cases??? aren't 30 carbine cases like twice as easy to get as 32-20 cases ???

BTW... love the cartridge in handguns, I have both a 30 carbine Blackhawk, & an Automag 3 in 30 carbine as well... & been thinking about a Contender barrel to go along with the group

one of my buddys made me a bunch of 1/2 jacketed 110 grain cast bullets, that work quite well in both handguns...

good luck with your project...

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Crooked Creek posted this 03 September 2008

Three part answer: 1) The “experimentor” in me needed another project to stack in with the others (even though I'm not the first to use 32-20 brass in the BH 30 Carbine......I've read several other successful accounts, with proven loads). 2) Headspacing on the rim makes the case length less critical (though, more an excuse for number 1 than any real problem !). 3) The bigger (and real) issue is what I mentioned in the beginning. That being, with cast bullets I was getting a “ring of lead” at the end of the chamber (behind the headspacing ring) that prevented chambering successive cartridges. It acted like the cases were too long (as they could not reach the headspace ring) and would lock up the cylinder as soon as one so chambered reached the recoil sheild.

Keep in mind that the intent is to have mild pressure general purpose/plinking loads at 900 - 1100 FPS. On those rare occassions when I want my ears to ring for a week, I'll shoot 85 to 100 Grain jacketed bullet high pressure loads at 1700-1800 FPS. In reality though, whenever I need whatever power level those loads would give me, I have several other choices to accomplish the feat. To my way of thinking, I'll have much more fun with the 32-20 equivilent loads in the 32-20 brass, and rimmed cases are just neater.;)

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hunterspistol posted this 03 September 2008

:coffee  Yes, have Starline 32-20WCF cases. I'm shooting them in single-shot TC contenders.  Rims measure about .065 or 65 thousandths.  Starline costs but, this is good stuff! They are consistent and nice to work with.

 

 

 

Can't hit the broad side of a barn with a very big rock!

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hunterspistol posted this 03 September 2008

:coffee  Oh yes, the neck thickness is around .008 or 8 thousandths.

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DonH posted this 04 September 2008

Why not just use .32-20 level loads in .30 Carbine brass. When I had one of the Rugers I took that approach and found the gun to be very accurate with the loads.

FWIW, I am guessing that if material is removed from the "face” of the case head yoou will also need to make sure the primer pocket is deep enough so the primer does not drag on th4e breech face. 

 

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Magnum Wheel Man posted this 04 September 2008

( sorry, didn't catch the lead ring issue ) the bullets my buddy made up for me have like over sized gas checks, so they have a copper cup... I've not run into any issues with them in my revolver... but that is the only cast bullets I've put through it...

I'm also a big Contender collector / shooter... & have a barrel for 32-20... but haven't moved that one over to the “shooter” case yet... ( too many others to shoot :fire )

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Thumbcocker posted this 06 September 2008

I have been trying for .32-20+p level loads in .30 carbine cases and am getting nice groupes but about 8" high with the rear sight screwed all the way down. DARN.  

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hunterspistol posted this 12 November 2008

:fire Not sure if this will do any good, but here's the link to my load tests for 32-20WCF in a 10” Contender - http://hunterspistol.spaces.live.com/>http://hunterspistol.spaces.live.com/

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