38 Super Auto

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  • Last Post 13 September 2009
Wineman posted this 01 May 2008

I am sure the “Holy Grail” would be a load that was inexpensive in components, shoots accurately and drops the cases at your feet.

In the interest of keeping things simple I am standardizing on a 130 grain cast and CCI 500 primers and either Bullseye or Unique. Both of these appear in Lymans Cast Bullet guide and at the starting loads for each (4 gr BE and 5.1 Unique) are pretty mild though the Unique “seems” hotter as the brass is farther away. Accuracy seems comparable too.

I notice that in most of the other available reloading data these two powders tend not to be listed for cast. Am I missing the boat trying to KISS with my powder selection. My other interests are 30 cal Mil-Surps with cast. The BE tends to be easier to use for me as its finer grain meters better. Cost wise the 1+ grain difference is pretty insignificant something like 0.5 cents per shot (yeah my powder is $$).

Anyone else have any experience with this caliber, cast weight and powders? I know that Ed Harris is satisfied with BE for many different applications.

Thanks in advance

Wineman

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Ed Harris posted this 01 May 2008

Back when I loaded for the .38 Super I had wonderful results at 50 yards with an H&G 140-gr. bullet and 3.5 grs. of old Bullseye, ca. 1970s.  I did well enough to shoot Master with it. The gun was a .38 Super National Match accurized by the late Alton Dinan.  I shot alot of NRA matches and eventually traded the Super on a .38 AMU Colt Gold Cup.  A friend has my AMU and still uses it in matches, but had it converted to use ordinary .38 Special brass, instead of the AMUwhich was .38 Special brass with the .38 Super semi-rim on it.   They stopped loading AMU ammo about 1972.

The bullet I used was very similar to the NEI #121.  Saeco makes an almost identical  bullet for the Super.  Use the lighest charge of Bullseye which reliably cycles using the standard 14-pound recoil spring. Velocity should be 830+/-30 fps.  That way you can still use factory .38 Super 130-gr. +P ammo, whereas if you  use a llighter spring factory loads may damage the gun.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Wineman posted this 01 May 2008

Ed,

Mine is a Series 70 from the mid 1980's, a handed down family heirloom.  It is in perfect shape and was hardly fired, but I do seem to an occasional failure to eject. The case is still over the chamber and gets stovepiped as the slide returns to battery. This generally ruins the case mouth by tearing it. The factory magazine did not do this with factory stuff but a Kimber magazine did. I left it loaded for a couple of months and it seems to have settled down. However with the cast handloads both magazines did FTE a couple of times.  The cases are trimmed and I try to shoot them by brand, I used a LEE FCD post seating. Any suggestions?

I have been using a NEI #131A 0.358-125 sized to 0.356 of ACWW. I am not sure of the lube but I purchased these from Daniel at the Bull-Shop. They feed well and shoot fine at 50 feet.

Wineman

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Ed Harris posted this 01 May 2008

Wineman wrote: ... Series 70 from the mid 1980's... I do seem to an occasional failure to eject. The case is still over the chamber and gets stovepiped as the slide returns to battery. This generally ruins the case mouth by tearing it. The factory magazine did not do this with factory stuff but a Kimber magazine did. I left it loaded for a couple of months and it seems to have settled down. However with the cast handloads both magazines did FTE a couple of times.  The cases are trimmed and I try to shoot them by brand, I used a LEE FCD post seating. Any suggestions?

I have been using a NEI #131A 0.358-125 sized to 0.356 of ACWW. I am not sure of the lube but I purchased these from Daniel at the Bull-Shop. They feed well and shoot fine at 50 feet. Sounds like you are getting low recoil impulse so that slide travel is slower and you aren't getting positive enough ejection for the case to clear before the slide returns forward.  A heavier bullet will help this.  Kimber mag may have a heavier spring, whereas that in the older mag was weaker.  Increased slide drag caused by increased magazine spring tension is slowing slide velocity.  See if the Kimber mag works if you load only 5 rounds.

You need to check and see if you may have one of the later barrels set up to headspace on the case mouth.  If so, you should not crimp, but use the FCD only to profile round diameter to ensure easy chambering and to remove all mouth flare. 

You will probably get better groups with .357 bullets, or even .358 if they chamber OK in your barrel.  With the H&G SWC I would size bullets .358 and adjust how much of the driving band shoulder to seat outside the case mouth to take up end-play of the round in the chamber.  At 50 feet you should be shooting a ragged hole from an accurzied gun if set up to HS on the case mouth with Bar-Sto or similar match barrel.  Groups will be double that with ordinary .38 Super barrel which headspaces on the semi-rim.  In the .38 Super NM I expected approximately inch groups at 25 yards and under 3" shooting standing with elevated rest at 50 yards with my best loads back when my eyes were young and I was in full battle trim.  

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Wineman posted this 01 May 2008

It was bought in 1983 by my Father in Law who was doing a lot of oil leases and wanted something for SP. Is there a reference to the SN for when they started headspacing on the case mouth? I think I checked once and it was later than 83. Is there a way to check by looking at the barrel? I slugged it and it is 0.350/0.354.

Thanks again!

Wineman

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bb posted this 01 May 2008

i have played with the super a fair amount over the last twenty years or so and i would second the advice about sizing to .358 as that has worked best for me.  it made a big improvement in an original colt barrel and also works well in 2 bar-sto's.

your barrel, if factory, is surely headspacing on the rim.  with some cast bullets you can load them long enough so they just barely chamber, and that somewhat avoids the headspace variability of old style barrels.  you have to make sure that your long seated bullets still work in the magazine though.  your specific bullet style may or may not work this way.  if i remember correctly, i was doing this with generic 158 swc bullets; but it has been a long while.

you could also get a drop-in barsto barrel which headspaces on the case mouth.  mine dropped group sizes from around 4” to 2” (some loads do better) in a commander.  i wish i would have done it sooner.

bullseye and unique both work well in the super.  i have standardized on american select for target loads and generally use whatever 125 gr bullets i can find (i don't cast).  it is quite easy to find loads that shoot into 1.5” at 25 yds, from a rest, in my commander with hard-fit barsto barrel.  (my witness match in 38 super is much more load sensitive.)

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irishjj posted this 05 June 2008

I picked up a colt 38 amu and need to find either loaded ammo or brass? I have a Giles 38 Super that I shoot and could us my conversion unit. Hope to hear from someone. Irishjj

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Ed Harris posted this 06 June 2008

irishjj wrote: I picked up a colt 38 amu and need to find either loaded ammo or brass? I have a Giles 38 Super that I shoot and could us my conversion unit. Hope to hear from someone. Irishjj Finding AMU brass will be difficult. It was only made in limited quantities and is now collectible.  So far as I know none was made after 1972.  You could head-turn .38 Special cases on a lathe to the .38 Super semi-rimmed configuration, and make AMU brass, but it is easier to have the gun converted to use factory .38 Special wadcutter. This requires replacing the extractor, and sometimes enlarging the diameter of the rim seat on the breech end of the barrel, if .38 Special cases don't enter the chamber fully.  If the gun is of unknown history, buy a new 14-lb. recoil spring from Brownells.  Load Remington 148-gr. HBWC factory bullets, flush seat, use 3.0 to 3.2 grains of Bullseyeand only enough taper crimp to remove mouth flare. 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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irishjj posted this 07 June 2008

thanks ed. my 38 super Giles has an extra barrel in 38 spl that I never have used. it came with 38spl mags and a extra extractor. irishjj

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38wadcutter posted this 10 March 2009

Hi Irish, If you ever want to sell the Giles pistol, please contact me. I collect and shoot them regularly and I'm sure I could offer more than a dealer. Thanks , Mitch Wainer [email protected]

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irishjj posted this 12 March 2009

I found out my clark 38 amu was converted by clark to 38spl. I met a friend of clark that worked with him and he checked it out. they have a new book out that he and a mr Jenkins  wrote on the match guns . I will post more on the book when i return home if you are interested it is very good. irishjj

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irishjj posted this 12 March 2009

thanks mitch I want to play with it a little. our winter has been hell in ky and i have not shot  at all. If i want to get rid of the Giles i will send you a email first i would rather i go to a shooter than a dealer. Irishjj

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38wadcutter posted this 12 March 2009

Irishjj, thanks for thinking of me. I think that book you're referring to is written by Bill Jenkins and Lew Sharp. I had the good fortune to meet Lew last fall in Houston at the Colt Collectors show and picked up the book and a few pistols from him-he has been involved with bullseye shooting for many years and was personal friends with Jim Clark Sr. He is a true gentleman and great person to talk with. The book is very well written and is a storehouse of information. Hope to hear from you. Best regards, Mitch Wainer

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irishjj posted this 12 March 2009

thanks that was how i met them. we were at the louisville ky show and reese day took me over to meet both of them. they were very helpful and told storys about clark. ill be sure to contact you if i want to sell the giles. Irishjj

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frnkeore posted this 09 August 2009

Does anyone have exprience with the 358311 mould in 38 Super? I've used WC 820 with 147 jacketed with good results. My burn rate is #9. And it should work with 160 lead bullets very well.

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Ed Harris posted this 13 August 2009

frnkeore wrote: Does anyone have exprience with the 358311 mould in 38 Super? I've used WC 820 with 147 jacketed with good results. My burn rate is #9. And it should work with 160 lead bullets very well. I briefly tried the 160-gr. #358311 in my Super, but its long shank causes a bulge  midway down the case body where there is a mismatch of bullet body length to internal case wall taper.  Using a Lee Factory Crimp Die mitigates this from the standpoint of functioning, but accuracy is impaired because the base band diameter is reduced by the expternal compression-sizing.  Better to use the 140-gr. H&G, Saeco or NEI bullets designed for the Super.  The 125-gr. version of #358242 also works OK.  

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 13 August 2009

frnkeore wrote: Does anyone have exprience with the 358311 mould in 38 Super? I've used WC 820 with 147 jacketed with good results. My burn rate is #9. And it should work with 160 lead bullets very well. I briefly tried the 160-gr. #358311 in my Super, but its long shank causes a bulge  midway down the case body where there is a mismatch of bullet body length to internal case wall taper.  Using a Lee Factory Crimp Die mitigates this from the standpoint of functioning, but accuracy is impaired because the base band diameter is reduced by the expternal compression-sizing.  Better to use the 140-gr. H&G, Saeco or NEI bullets designed for the Super.  The 125-gr. version of #358242 also works OK.  

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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38wadcutter posted this 13 September 2009

Irish, How are your Giles pistols doing? Hope you had a chance to shoot them. Keep me in mind. Thanks, Mitch  [email protected]

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irishjj posted this 13 September 2009

doing good. I got side tracked with work and grandkid and a Kimber 38 super' Ill keep you in mind. JJ

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