223 Rem

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CB posted this 24 July 2009

Gene

Thanks for starting this thread I was looking for a .223 Thread to help me with my cast development. Always want to hear what George says.

Stephen Perry

Angeles BR:fire

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linoww posted this 17 April 2008

My two(I guess i sold the third?) 225415's are .548” to .590 and are no newer than 20 years.

Here is a target shot with my Stevens 200 light sporter 22-250 at 100 yds. You will notice the first two shots low on the sighter then the next shot raised up.This is typical with his gun.The group right is #1.The next (group #2) below the sighter has the first shot follow the last point of impact then dropped down!!The last group (bottom right) was the same point of impact as group #2's last four shots.After the barrel is warmed up like this it will stay put until it cools down again.The load is 13.5 Allient 2400 and the LBT 60 Sp tapered 22 Veral made me.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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j35nut posted this 16 April 2008

Paul Pollard wrote: How long is the 225415 bullet you guys are shooting. Mine is a Lyman single cavity and is about .550 long and weighs maybe 45 grains in linotype. Is the current one any different?

Paul

I have two 415's. one is a 2004 model the other was born in 2006 they both measure .6 in length and weigh 53 grs with ww+2%. good shooting

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linoww posted this 16 April 2008

Paul Pollard wrote: LBT made a 22650 SFN for me when he was Arizona. Ask if it's still available. He made it for my TC Contender in .22 Hornet. It is a short stubby thing which weighed 50 grains in WW. Heat treated and hollow pointed with the Forster tool, it was a good woodchuck round. It used a case full of IMR 4227 at 2480 fps.

Paul

I'll bug him about it.I also was planning the Forster HP jig.I had a HP 225415 mold years back.I and hated the thing once i just used the Forster jig. I sold it for a mighty $35.Veral metioned nose splitting with foil,have you ever tried that on game.The rockchucks I shot last year could have used a bit more bullet expansion,although they died fairly fast.I have a lot of Coyotes arround here and my goal is to nab one with a 22 cast bullets this year.I figure the HP or foil trick may be needed for a sure kill.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Paul Pollard posted this 16 April 2008

LBT made a 22650 SFN for me when he was Arizona. Ask if it's still available. He made it for my TC Contender in .22 Hornet. It is a short stubby thing which weighed 50 grains in WW. Heat treated and hollow pointed with the Forster tool, it was a good woodchuck round. It used a case full of IMR 4227 at 2480 fps.

Paul

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linoww posted this 16 April 2008

I don't discount your idea so will have to look into it when using hard GC bullets.

My hard bullets may be why I get away with alot of neck tension.I will try your crimp trick next time out.The only .22 cal PB shooting I do is with a 225438 without a GC rolled in Lee Alox at about 1400.It's good for about 1-1.5” at 50.The mold is a 4 cavity so I am not really trying for one hole groups,just a quiet load for 'round the cabin.But boy can I cast a mess of bullets fast.I may order an LBT 4 cav similar to my 60g tapered bullet for bulk plinking loads.I just wish he made a flatpoint nose in 22 caliber for a “utility” bullet.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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PETE posted this 16 April 2008

George,

I've often wondered why the 225415 mould I've got is so heavy. But back when I first started casting it wasn't all that rare. Quite a bit oversize to due to variation of bore dim.'s and the need to have a bullet cast large enuf to cover most possibilities. More recently an NEI stop ring bullet for the 8.15 was listed at 165 grs. in their catalog but was actually 180 grs. when I cast with mine.

With a lot of neck tension aren't you worried about deforming, or resizing, the bullet when you seat it? I know..... I know.:) Putting a crimp on can deform the bullet to.

Of course most of my shooting is done with PB and relatively soft (1-25) bullets so to tight a neck tension can resize the bullet and deform the base. I make my own expander plugs and always test them to be sure they don't harm the base or size. Groove diam. seems to work in most instances.

Actually what's amazing is that a heeled .22 RF bullet that's crimped in really hard shoots as well as they do. This has made me a believer in a crimp having less of an effect on the bullet than a resize due to heavy neck tension. And..... I only put on enuf crimp to prevent the bullet from jumping just from the primer ignition.

I don't discount your idea so will have to look into it when using hard GC bullets.

PETE

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linoww posted this 16 April 2008

PETE wrote: George,

One thing you might try to see if it improves accuracy is to crimp the bullet in very slightly. What I'm beginning to find out is that under .30 cal. bullets, especially those that weigh 100 grs. or less, need the crimp so that pressure can become more consistent from shot to shot.

I ran a test quite a few years ago to see just how much the 225415 bullet would be moved just by the force of the primer when seated in the Hornet case. A real eye opener. With no crimp and the bullet seated tight into the rifling some primers would move the bullet as much as 5/8” ahead of the case. All primers moved the bullet to some extent. I then set the crimp enuf so my favorite primer wouldn't move the bullet. With the three different Hornets I had at the time this improved accuracy.

From that it seems to me that if the primer force moves the bullet forward and then stops until the powder burn brings the pressure up enuf to move the bullet again you need to retard the bullet a little so the bullet only moves till the powder pressure builds up. Heavier bullets don't seem to need a crimp in order to “work” properly.

I'd like to do a test some day to see at what wgt. you need to start using a crimp. The 120 gr. Ideal 285222 I use in my .28/30 seems to work ok without a crimp as does a 110 gr. NEI bullet I use in my .25/20SS. But I haven't tried crimping these to see if I can't get better accuracy. One of those “some day” tests.

We have a regular 200 yd. bench match at our bi-monthly Schuetzen Matches. If your familiar with the ASSRA 200 yd. target then you'll have some understanding when I say we have guys that can shoot in the mid 240's out of a possible 250. I'm not that good at it because I'm not the patient type and always figure I'll just hold off a bit instead of waiting for my condition.... which never seems to work.

Your 225415 is about 8 -10 grains heavier than any of the three I own.

I dont cimp,but use very heavy neck tension so I am getting the same “condition” you are doing by crimping.In my Savage 12 22-250 I have shot as small as .200 for 5 @100 and shot a 195-2X in a CBA match in Spokane(100 yd only match) last year.I just seem to have to fire a few more sighters than I want to to get the groups point of impact consistant.As far as 200 with the 22's its rough to say the least!I havent been able to shoot as high velocity as Paul is with any accuracy.Maybe thats why he does well at 200?

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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PETE posted this 16 April 2008

Gene,

I'll 2nd what Jeff says. The initial cost is what scares people away but if you figure the cost out over a lifetime it's pretty cheap. Pots will wear out but they usually last me about 10 yrs. Moulds, ladle, and sizer/dies will last a lifetime. If you want to do without the GC then NEI has a coupla PB moulds available. They also will cut any of their moulds without the GC shank.

Or, like I did, take an existing GC mould and have the GC shank opened up, or cut off. I had the 110 gr. NEI mentioned in my other post opened up so as to be able to use it for ASSRA competition. Cast in straight Lino I've pushed it up to 1750 fps without any Leading. Wasn't any accuracy tho so backed it off to 1440 fps.

PETE

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CB posted this 16 April 2008

Gene You have to consider into your equation the cost over a long period of time.. Casting is cheaper, however the initial cost of equipment does have to be figured in..

Depending on preference the melter set up can easily be had for under $50.00.

If you have an old turkey or fish fryer that will work. Pick up an old dutch oven at a garage sale for a couple of bucks, that makes a suitable lead pot and you can batch in the same pot!

Keep you eye on forums and Ebay for used moulds.. Check the price you bid against Midway and do a max bid of 80% of new price.. There are people on Ebay that get paid to bid the price up and they have no intent of purchasing. Watch the sales at midway also..

For gas checks look at the cast boolit forum group buys, they have the best prices going!

Casting does not need to cost more than jacketed if you shop and take advantage of deals!

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Gene posted this 16 April 2008

George, Paul, Pete,

I have some RCBS bullets that are unresized and w/no GC at about 12 Br. I'm going to tumble lube and try them behind 5.5 Unique. Do I need to bell the case mouth alittle??

I was going to order some GC's yesterday and noticed the price was about 3 to 4 cents @ pc. If I can't find a bullet that will shoot in my 700 without GC's. I'm going to a 30 cal. For me the object of CB's is to save money, not pay the same price as jacketed. The cost of moulds, meltors, etc., and my time of casting the bullets has to be figured into the equation.

Thanks,

Gene Perryman

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Gene posted this 16 April 2008

George, Paul, Pete,

The bullets I'm shooting were given to me by a friend and they are (the .224 sized) .563 to .568" long and weigh ffrom 49 to 50 grains. The bullets were lubed with LBT.

This is the target I originally wanted to send. The two at 1:00 oclock, I believe those are my fault . I'm still using my ad hoc rest. This was at 50 yds

Thanks,

Gene Perryman

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PETE posted this 15 April 2008

George,

One thing you might try to see if it improves accuracy is to crimp the bullet in very slightly. What I'm beginning to find out is that under .30 cal. bullets, especially those that weigh 100 grs. or less, need the crimp so that pressure can become more consistent from shot to shot.

I ran a test quite a few years ago to see just how much the 225415 bullet would be moved just by the force of the primer when seated in the Hornet case. A real eye opener. With no crimp and the bullet seated tight into the rifling some primers would move the bullet as much as 5/8” ahead of the case. All primers moved the bullet to some extent. I then set the crimp enuf so my favorite primer wouldn't move the bullet. With the three different Hornets I had at the time this improved accuracy.

From that it seems to me that if the primer force moves the bullet forward and then stops until the powder burn brings the pressure up enuf to move the bullet again you need to retard the bullet a little so the bullet only moves till the powder pressure builds up. Heavier bullets don't seem to need a crimp in order to “work” properly.

I'd like to do a test some day to see at what wgt. you need to start using a crimp. The 120 gr. Ideal 285222 I use in my .28/30 seems to work ok without a crimp as does a 110 gr. NEI bullet I use in my .25/20SS. But I haven't tried crimping these to see if I can't get better accuracy. One of those “some day” tests.

We have a regular 200 yd. bench match at our bi-monthly Schuetzen Matches. If your familiar with the ASSRA 200 yd. target then you'll have some understanding when I say we have guys that can shoot in the mid 240's out of a possible 250. I'm not that good at it because I'm not the patient type and always figure I'll just hold off a bit instead of waiting for my condition.... which never seems to work.

Paul,

My Lyman 225415 mould is probably 40 yrs. old, if not older. It's .621” long and ready to shoot weighs 57 grs. cast from 50/50 Lino/WW.

PETE

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Paul Pollard posted this 15 April 2008

How long is the 225415 bullet you guys are shooting. Mine is a Lyman single cavity and is about .550 long and weighs maybe 45 grains in linotype. Is the current one any different?

Paul

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linoww posted this 15 April 2008

but the more I shot the rifle the better the groups got. I believe my rifle shoots better dirty than clean.

My Savage 22-250 does the same darn thing when I first fire it.I think its a matter of softening the lube up.I dont know?Some lubes seem to be worse than others.I just fire about 5 into the sighter before going to the record targets.I have fired my Stevens 200 22-250 about 1000 rnds at 2100 fps without cleaning and all is still going well.I may never clean it!!!I am going to try a wet patch of Ed's Red before the first group to see if it helps get the first few into the group.I plan on shooting sagerats in two weeks and dont want to have to shoot 5 in the dirt before aiming at one.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 15 April 2008

PETE wrote: many 1000 225415 bullets in a variety of Hornet rifles. I was not overly impressed with the accuracy at 100 yds., but a LOT of work finally gave me an average of 1 1/8” - 1 1/4".

PETE

I have shot many myself,and results are similar.But I couldnt get averages much under 1-5/8” over a long haul in my 222's,Hornets or 22-250's.It did shoot very well at 200 in a 22-250 somtimes shooting into 3-4” for 5 in relativly calm weather.I killed a few chucks with it last year up to about 100,but the RCBS 55 FN always shoots a bit better for me.Its(225415) sort of a “classic” bullet,but never the best shooting from my experiance either.reminds me of the 225438 as far as accuracy goes.Although a friends Hornet shoots the 225438 near MOA,so go figure!!I'll take a tapered(either with a die or from the mold design).22 bullet over all others most of the time.

What 200yd 22Rf matches were you shooting in??They havnt shot smallbore prone at that distance much since the 1950's.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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PETE posted this 14 April 2008

Gene,

If .224” sized bullets work for you then keep it up. Guns are like women.... if you know what I mean. :)

Also don't worry about that 225415 bullet shooting at 100 yds. Can you say 200 yds.? I haven't shot that particular bullet at that range but have shot many .22 LR 40 gr. bullets that far in competition and once you get the hang of them you'll be surprised at their accuracy. Many of the BP Shilouette shooters say the trajectory and wind deflection at 200 yds. with the .22 RF are about equal to the .45/70 at 500 meters and practice with them at that range.

As I mentioned I use a lot longer and heavier bullet in my .223 but I have shot many 1000 225415 bullets in a variety of Hornet rifles. I was not overly impressed with the accuracy at 100 yds., but a LOT of work finally gave me an average of 1 1/8” - 1 1/4".

PETE

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Gene posted this 14 April 2008

Pete,

This morning I shot ten rounds at 50 yds of my first 223 CB's the Lyman 225415. Five were sized .224 and five were .225. I shot the .225's first and then the .224's. They were loaded behind 5.5 grns Unique. There didn't appear to be any leading at all. I didn't shoot at 100 yds, because to tell the truth I was alot skeptical that these little bitty bullets would even hit the target. Boy was I pleased when the last group started dancing around the X.

The .224's seemed to shoot better than the .225's, but the more I shot the rifle the better the groups got. I believe my rifle shoots better dirty than clean.

Gene Perryman

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Paul Pollard posted this 10 April 2008

Ken,

The alloy I use is a blend of monotype and linotype. Both of these have the tin-to-antimony content of roughly 1 to 3. By using weight calculation charts for my moulds, I can pretty nearly calculate the lead percentage. So linotype at 84% lead and monotype at 72% lead, and mine at 75% lead. Tin and antimony are the last 25% of the mix and to have tin at 1/3 of the 25% means that tin/antimony is about 6-18 or 24%. Close enough for me. Total mix: 75-6.5-18.5. Maybe easier would be 76-6-18 and it comes out even.

This only follows what Bill Ferguson told me several years ago about the 1/3 mix of tin and antimony. Your Magnum alloy of 92-2-6 follows the same formula: 2/6=1/3.

For each mould, I usually cast some w-w samples, linotype samples and monotype samples. By using some math, I can come close to calculating content of a mix somewhere in between. Depending on the load, I can adjust the pot of metal for what I want to see according to the chart.

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PETE posted this 10 April 2008

Gene,

There is some controversy about seating the bullet below the case neck/shoulder junction. Some say it doesn't matter and others say. like you've heard, it's a no-no.

With no real experience along the deep seating idea I tend to agree that seating the bullet into the neck/shoulder area below the GC is not good. For my Savage .223 I'm using an LBT 225 85 SP. This of course would put the bullet well below the neck. Since I'm using it in CBA Small Bore Competition I've had the throat run out so the bullet is just held in the case by the GC.

If seating the bullet below the neck bothers you any decent gunsmith can run your throat out to fit any bullet length you want. At the same time you might have him put in a more gentle throat angle. Standard factory throats are cut for jacketed bullets and sure don't help cast bullet accuracy in most cases.

As for descrepancies in the loading manuals...... your guess is as good as mine. In most cases I don't get their relation of best load to good accuracy. Most loads, with any given powder, I find work best at lower MV's than they say. Magnumitis is alive and well in the Lyman labs! :) Probably your best bet would be to start with the lower load and work up.

PETE

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