Pre-1876 UMC 45 Colt Cartridge

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  • Last Post 24 September 2023
Bryan Austin posted this 30 August 2023

I finally picked up an early 1870's Orcutt primed 45 Colt cartridge manufactured by UMC. The cartridge dissected and the following information recorded.

  • Manufacture - UMC
  • Date - Early pre-1876 before UMC switched to the A.C. Hobbs primer patent design.
  • Primer - J Orcutt (A.C. Hobbs) March 10th, 1874 patented primer with the vertical anvil.
  • Bullet - LRNFP, 250gr, Length 775", Diameter 455", seat. depth - .390", conical hollow base
  • Black Powder - 40gr by weight, no compression
  • Case - unheadstamped, deep primer pocket .200"
  • Case Length - 1.262"
  • AOL - 1.6485"

 

SOLID-HEAD Case, Semi-balloon pocket.

Primer pocket (slash-down-out-left), primer cup (slash-down-out-right), "D"= anvil (vertical lines)

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Aaron posted this 30 August 2023

Very nice. Great photos too.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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MP1886 posted this 30 August 2023

That was a potent load for a 45 Colt that far back. Makes me wonder what improvement would be in velocity if the powder was compressed some? And if the cartridge would take the pressure. 

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Bryan Austin posted this 30 August 2023

I don't know but from what I learned about the early 44 WCF loads, It should be murder!

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JeffinNZ posted this 30 August 2023

Any chance you could get a BHN on the bullet?  I suspect about 8.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Bryan Austin posted this 30 August 2023

I actually don't have a BHN gauge, but maybe it is time to get one.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 30 August 2023

gee ... how far we are done gone in 140 years ...  soft lead 250 gr.  44 slug at 900 fps ...

Wyatt would be so jealous ...

ken

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Bryan Austin posted this 30 August 2023

Okay, who manufactured 260gr (260) lead bullets for the 45 Colt cartridge in the early 1870's?

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EVR_Forge posted this 21 September 2023

Really interesting.

 

It appears there is no or very little crimp and certainly not over the ogive?

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Bryan Austin posted this 21 September 2023

Correct, not much was needed.

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EVR_Forge posted this 22 September 2023

Correct, not much was needed.

 

Very interesting.  Stuff like that always makes me curious. Like leaving one in the chamber and shooting several cylinder-fulls around it to see if it unseats.

I'm new here but not new to shootin irons and handloading, "normal" or experimental.

Your posts are great stuff. 

And your .44-40 site is very interesting as well.  I've got a picture for that you might be interested in.

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Bryan Austin posted this 22 September 2023

Thank you, and I always like pictures!!

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EVR_Forge posted this 22 September 2023

Correct, not much was needed.

 

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EVR_Forge posted this 22 September 2023

Two locals, long gone now.  .44-40 92's.  On the left, with an aluminum folder. On the right, modelled after the Mark 1 or II STEN. 

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Bryan Austin posted this 22 September 2023

That is cool!!!!

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EVR_Forge posted this 22 September 2023

Correct, not much was needed.

 

I've one similarly conceived.  Alas, not .44-40 but .44 Mag.

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Bryan Austin posted this 22 September 2023

Oh those are great!!!

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EVR_Forge posted this 23 September 2023

Some comments on that round.

 

Bullet diameter. .455. If kept consistently with guns bored to match would have eliminated a lot of headaches for us who had later Smith 25-5 of various vintages. No crimp over ogive...interesting as noted above. And the hollow base... I assume it was to allow maximum obturation is guns of variable bore/groove dimensions? Thick skirt that's for sure. And, I think i remember Elmer Keith commenting that it also gave some additional volume for powder, which it would. Between that and balloon head cases, easy handling of the full-grown 40-grain black charge which you cite.

And look at that minimal rim. Surely sufficient for the Colt SAA w/ rod ejector but even in later SAAMI spec has caused some issues w/ swingout hand ejectors. I remember w/ my S&W 25-5's I couldn't mess around while ejecting empties or loaded rounds. You really need to work the ejector like you mean it with the muzzle pointed up or rounds may slip under the ejector star and sink back into the chamber. I remember reading that the 1909 Colt New Service and 09 service ammo possessed a wider rim which due to the smaller cylinder of the Colt SAA, would only allow 3 rounds of 09 ammo to be loaded in the SAA, skipping a chamber in between each due to the wider rim. I remember reading that 09 was loaded to higher pressure than the old stuff but I suspect the real reason for the wider rim was to preclude fall-back under the ejector star. Regardless, both rounds are powerful.

 

Anyway, very interesting and thanks for posting.

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Bryan Austin posted this 23 September 2023

 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UAaKCmwp_R7J3IfnLogKmx4Mk8E724Blh0OHrfglxgk/edit#gid=884820685

This is what little bit of information I have on the variants

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MP1886 posted this 23 September 2023

 EVR_Forge I own a S&W Model 25 45 Colt and use to shoot it extensively.  Not so much lately. It's one of the most accurate revolvers I've owned. My go to load for it is the RCBS 255 SWC which sometimes weighs as much as 260 grains depending on which alloy I'm using. My standard load is a stiff charge of Unique powder. The barrel is 8 3/8 inches and the revolver is very pleasant to shoot. Interesting shooting the same load in my 94 Winchester Trapper bites your shoulder some. I thought it was me being a wimp, but read where Mike Venturino said the same thing.  It's amazing in a ways beause the rifle is much heavier then the Smith, yet seems to have more punch to it.  I've never had any problems ejecting empties from my Smith. I use WW, Rem, and Starline brass in it.  Even though my cylinder throats measure .456 I size my  bullets to .452 and the accuracy is more then I would ask for.  I tried fatter bullets and it honestly didn't shrink the groups. i talked to the gunsmith Bowman once about putting a 45acp cylinder in it so I could have dual cylinder revolver and he was totally against it saying it's near impossible to get it to work out correctly. He gave a very detailed review of it, saying it wasn't as simple as getting an appropiate donor cylinder and fitting it to the revolver.  

This thread is very interesting. I've often thought what a powerful round the 45 Colt was with the 40 grain black powder loading back in the day, amazing. 

 

MP1886

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RicinYakima posted this 24 September 2023

MP1886,

Yes, the Peters 40 grain load was a very good cartridge. I got to shoot four through my 4 5/8th SAA and they were still good after almost a 100 years. Averaged over 900 f/s over the Chrony. Even with old semi-balloon head brass, all I can compress in the cases is 38 grains (weighted) of FFF. 

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