Ok, here's my little creation...

  • 6.1K Views
  • Last Post 02 February 2008
Adirondack Jack posted this 15 January 2008

I shoot CAS, and am a devotee of .45 cal. revolvers.

 

For nigh on 30 years, the debate in CAS has been between the big bores and the .38s, the heavy and stout VS the “mouse pharts".

 

My contention was that there is nothing inherent in the .45 revolver preventing it from being shot at light levels as well as a .38, and of course in the same gun, at levels well beyond the .38s.

 

To make light-recoiling loads burn well, shorter cartridges were needed.  to do that without modifying guns, I brought to the game the Cowboy .45 Special.  it wasn't really rocket science.  I simply had .45 Colt brass made at ACP length. the reduced case capacity helps keep burn pressures up when shooting light loads.

 

So, to exploit the potential of the cartridge, I got to thinking about how to minimize bullet weight to make the .45s truely compete head to head with the state of the art competition .38 loads.

 

The end result is the “Barnstormer .45", a bullet currently being prototyped at 120 grains in Cowboy .45 Special (and ACP) cases, and it flies very well at as little as 590 fps (ES of 27, SD of 12).

 

In ACP, I got it to feed and function in a rock stock SA Champion with a stock recoil spring, at a healthy 1200 fps.  Talk about a high energy, low recoil round, LOL.

 

Here's a couple of pics:

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
CB posted this 15 January 2008

Hey, that is really neat. For the first time on this forum I can now say, “Wow, I want one of them!” Darn, now I'm going to have more day dreams about 45 CBs flying in the sky hitting the bullseye, and functioning in my 1911! Thanks for sharing sucha interesting idea.  :cool:

Oh, what kind of wad material is that? Does it interfere with the hollow base concept?

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 15 January 2008

Gee, I'd like to try some of those cast of pure PB for my T/C Seneca rifle!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

Adirondack Jack posted this 15 January 2008

The wad is a 1/8” thick nitro card.  I had an idea to use it to further reduce case capacity, and may still do so with 777, but with smokeless it wasn't necessary.  Didn't seem to interfere with the operation of the HB bullet.

 

Ed, I have a marlin 1894 modified to run the short Cowboy .45 Special cases.  I tried a few of these little bullets in it on top of 11 grains of Power Pistol. They ran 1500 fps with so little recoil t was like a big ole .22 I suspect about 30 grains of Goex FFG would do the same.  Nice little critter gitter out to say 50 yards for anything up to say coyote size.

 

FWIW the alloy I'm casting, 50% WW/50% soft lead is soft enough I am sure you could load em in yer front stuffer.  I loaded a few samples in my brass cases last night with Goex, and literally seated the bullets by squeezing the cartridge between my thumb and forefinger (gauging powder compression).

 

In a week or so maybe I can cast some more of these up and offer samples to anyone who would like a few.  I can't make em in enough quantity to sell (single cavity mold and all that stuff), but if folks would donate for postage I'd be happy to send a few so ya could try em if you like.  Remind me in a week or two.

Attached Files

JeffinNZ posted this 15 January 2008

NEAT.

Ever loaded them backwards for expansion?:shock:

Cheers from New Zealand

Attached Files

Adirondack Jack posted this 15 January 2008

I tried a couple. they were probably running too fast for optimal expansion (1100 fps), so the bullet came apart violently in a gallon windshield washer jug. Blew up the jug, but did not exit.

Attached Files

Veral Smith posted this 15 January 2008

Simplest and most precise way to make your hollow base bullets is to have a mold made that casts the weight you want, with a crimp and grease groove.  Run them through a sizer and fill both grooves.  Then run them through a swage die with a hollow base punch.  The punches are very easily made with various cavity forms to find what is most accurate.

  The grease filled grooves will hold shape perfectly when swaged. 

Attached Files

Adirondack Jack posted this 16 January 2008

I don't get it.  This is a bullet that would weigh 160 grains or so if cast as a flat base. So that means a HB cavity of 40 grains or so equivalent.  In order to mold it, I'd have to have a mold so short, there would be no grease groove. (this assumes when a “pill” is swaged, ya'd be extruding the lead back into the skirt???)

Attached Files

Veral Smith posted this 16 January 2008

Exactly, and it increases both length of the bearing band and lube groove as the metal stretches back into a skirt, with the lube groove becoming more shallow.  But  it works just fine.  I've done it with several calibers back when I first started cutting molds.  Since the project is to get accuracy at low velocity, the shallow lube groove will be no problem.

One bright spot is that bullet precision is unbeatable when bullets are swaged.

Attached Files

LWesthoff posted this 17 January 2008

Thought this was supposed to be the CAST bullet forum, and the penalty for suggesting anybody use a “swaged” (ugh) bullet was to get their computer keyboard washed out with soap!

Just kidding, but it does bring up an interesting question: If someone were to use one of the bullets produced per Veral's suggestions in a CBA Postal Match, would it be legal?

Attached Files

Adirondack Jack posted this 17 January 2008

I duno about legal.  I do know most of our cast bullets get lightly swaged (a sizer is a swage) and those with gas checks get pressed as well, so why not a “base reprofiling” operation to a CAST bullet ;)

 

I'm no purist, I look for results.

Attached Files

CB posted this 17 January 2008

Modifying a cast bullet like that is a term the CBA uses called 'bump' and it is legal in match shooting. It is listed as data on the match tech sheets.  Like Veral says it most always improves performance if done with precision and done to fit the firearm, whether its a pistol or rifle.

Veral, do you think you could cut this design from the base of the mould leaving the shaft for the hollow base plug? You could leave it up to the purchaser to turn the plug and install it, like a hollow point mould............Dan

Attached Files

LWesthoff posted this 17 January 2008

Personally, I agree 100% re your stand on “results.” It's just that I've wondered for several years where the line is that separates a “bumped” cast bullet from a swaged bullet as far as CBA legal ammo is concerned, and this seemed like a wonderful opportunity to bring up the question. Wes

Attached Files

LWesthoff posted this 17 January 2008

At the risk of getting almost as far off the thread as Mr. Brennan, I'm going to ask one more question - then I'll shut up about this subject.

Question: If I cast a cylindrical slug, then swage (bump) it to shape with ogival nose, grease grooves etc. could I shoot it as a legal CBA cast bullet? (I don't intend to ever do this. Just wondering where the line is.)

Attached Files

CB posted this 17 January 2008

Well, you know we could get into a bunch of “what ifs” especially when it comes to any kind of translations of laws and rules. The rules of shooting cast bullets in CBA competition sets the basis of what the program is about. If bullet swaging was a big factor (many people doing it instead of casting) or if it had a dominant accuracy factor over casting, then it would create a different circumstance.

Technically bumping is swaging, and a rule is only as good as the capability is to enforce it. Am I beginning to sound like a lawyer sidling the question? Lets just flow with the idea of cast bullets and the Cast Bullet Association. Unless maybe you'd like to start the Swag Bullet Association?  :)..................Dan

Attached Files

JeffinNZ posted this 17 January 2008

........The Lead & Lead Alloy Projectile Assc..........

Welcoming new members whether you squeeze 'em or pour 'em.

 

Cheers from New Zealand

Attached Files

Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 17 January 2008

I think you have just re-invented the 45 Auto Rim cartridge.

Rich

Attached Files

Adirondack Jack posted this 17 January 2008

Not exactly.  The autorim is desgined for use in the .45 ACP revolver.  It won't work in .45 Colt revolvers unless you permanently cut the cylinder to open up the headspace gap.  The Cowboy .45 Special works in any .45 Colt revolver (or single shot arm) ever made, as well as in any .45 ACP revolver that would normally accept autorim, except those rare few early .455 to acp conversions that are bored straight through and don't have adequate headspace gap for the rim.

 

In other words, along with the ACP and Autorim, the C45S completes the picture, making a short, efficient round available for any revolver ya got from an original peacemaker to a modern Taurus or S&W in .45 Colt or ACP chambering, and does so with no modification to the guns, allowing mix or match with acp or .45 Colt (whatever the gun was chambered for).

 

Further, in specially prepared lever actions, the same little efficient round can be run.  CAS shooters, and those with bunches of .45s kinda like the idea.  One customer writes that he loads C45S and shoots em out a .45 Colt blackhawk, a .45 ACP JM special smith, and his .45 colt handirifle.

Attached Files

Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 17 January 2008

maybe, but I went out after reading this and loaded six AR cartridges into: 1. My 4” Anaconda 45LC 2. My Colt SAA 3. both Cimarron SAA 45LC's

spun the cylinder on all of them.

Rich

Attached Files

Adirondack Jack posted this 17 January 2008

IS, if that's true, and your .45 Colt guns have not had the cylinders cut, you have serious headspace issues. The rims are .030 thicker on AR brass than on .45 Colt brass and they should not have allowed you to close the cylinder on the anaconda, let alone turn the SAA or the clones.

 

OR, you got some really squishy brass,

OR

 

Yer a magician, because folks have been cutting guns or reconfiguring the rims on AR or cutting back colt brass in half-baked attempts to deal with this issue for nearly 90 years.

Attached Files

CB posted this 01 February 2008

Hey Adirondack jack! I almost have one of them! I bought a few used moulds last year for a song just to speculate on. Just now got around to cast this one to check dimensions. It is a Lyman mould # 450229. With Lyman #2 Alloy is cast 157gr with a diameter of .455". I ran it through my lube sizer at .452” and lubed it. I think it'll work good in the ACP? I'll get my light recoil spring in to try it with a light load...............Dan

:}

Attached Files

Show More Posts
Categories
Search
Popular Tags
This Weeks High Earners
Hot Topics
Close