"A LOAD" IS 13 GRAINS OF RED DOT

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  • Last Post 18 February 2010
CB posted this 09 October 2007

This is not to be construed as a criticism of Ed Harris, who knows more about guns and reloading and cast bullets than I'll ever claim to know.

This is an explanation of why I believe that some of what Ed has written is incorrect. I do this because what gets written by knowledgable people lives forever, correct or incorrect, and we've got about all the incorrect cast bullet information we need floating around now.

Ed Harris writes and wrote that 13 grains of Red Dot in a wide array of cartridges is “THE LOAD". When he writes “THE LOAD” he somewhere between asserts and implies that there is something unique about 13 grains of Red Dot in a set of cartridges.

Ed also started the ball rolling on the “chamber pressure and brinell hardness” business in TFS in the distant past; the ball then being assisted on it's path by many others. It will never die, unfortunately.

Yet the pressures with the 13/Red Dot loads and the BHN/Pressure/performance are contradictory, suggesting to me at least that something ain't true.

After spending hundreds of hours on the matter I concluded that the BHN/Pressure/performance notion is just plain not true. The work is in the book.

I've always been suspicious of "THE LOAD" because of the good luck many have had with others of the Hercules family and the many listed loads in reloading manuals. When Ed resurrected the contention here I thought I'd look it over and subject it to a little peer review. The result is the listing below of pressures and velocities of the (ex BE) old Hercules family, and IMR4227 that John Bischoff included.

It is absolutely true that low cost accurate loads can be constructed with a wide variety of fast powders. It is also absolutely true that we can't tell which of thse fast powders will yield the best accuracy using analyses from Quickload. It is painfully obvious to me and to John Bischoff that Red Dot produces the highest pressures for the 13 grain velocity of a number of powders, and that on it's face it appears that others of the listed powders might prove more suitable than Red Dot.

And it seems eminently clear to me that Red Dot at 13 grains or any other charge has nothing about it that makes it unique or “best” or even good as a lead bullet rifle powder.

13 grains of Red Dot ain't “THE LOAD".

SUMMARY

(NONE OF THESE ARE RECOMMENDED LOADS!!!) 

31141 176 grains, 24 inch barrel, seat depth .300

13.0 Red Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      35502            1654

30-40   34240            1638

30-06   27349            1576   Peak psi at 0.3 inch bullet travel

 

13.6 Green Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      34132            1654

30-40   32950            1638

30-06   26390            1576

 

13.2 Unique

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      29183            1655

30-40   28245            1640

30-06   22571            1575

 

13.9 Herco

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      27561            1656

30-40   26704            1640

30-06   21373            1574

 

15.4 Blue Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      19453            1656

30-40   18932            1640

30-06   15121            1561

 

16.2 2400

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      17346            1658            100%

30-40   16921            1641            100%

30-06   13552            1554            100% at 20.2 inches bullet travel

 

20.0 IMR 4227

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      15577            1658            96.6%

30-40   15194            1640            96.6%

30-06   12086            1537            94.4%

 

 

 

311299  202 grains, 24 inch barrel

24 inch barrel, seat depth .375

 

13.0 Red Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      39082            1557

30-40   37564            1542

30-06   29618            1483

 

13.4 Green Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      37660            1550

30-40   36211            1535

30-06   28491            1475

 

13.1 Unique

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      32553            1556

30-40   31392            1541

30-06   24722            1479

 

13.6 Herco

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      30762            1551

30-40   29684            1536

30-06   23342            1473

 

14.9 Blue Dot

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      21893            1555

30-40   21217            1539

30-06   16641            1466 Peak psi at 1.8 inch bullet travel (BHN

 14)

 

15.4 2400

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      19084            1550

30-40   18544            1535

30-06   14590            1455 100% burn at 14.9 inches bullet travel

 

18.7 IMR 4227

Ctg       PSI            Vel

308      16717            1552   98.6 % burn

30-40   16244            1535   98.6% burn

30-06   12688            1438    96.9% burn

If anything looks “out of line” check back with me and I'll verify.

 

It's just so obvious that Blue Dot, 2400, and 4227 would be best

 choices.

John

 

  

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CB posted this 09 October 2007

Joe Brennan wrote: Dan;

I've read this over and over, and can only conclude that you just don't understand what's going on here.

If you want a fast powder to shoot low cost (maybe not) rifle loads, choose Red Dot, Blue Dot, Herco, Unique, 2400 or another. Some may be better than others for your application, but none is THE POWDER. Joe,

I'm sorry you must have miss-understood me. I should of just said that the Quickload program is based on hypothetical calculations. Indeed it is a useful loading companion, but not in a definitive way that I assumed you were using as such, but now I realize you were speaking in general terms of what pressures and velocities could be.

Ya, I agree Red Dot, Herco, Unique, 2400 or another will work for any individual application's and that there is not a THE POWDER except in one's own experience's as such, but not for everyone.

 

"This is an explanation of why I believe that some of what Ed has written is incorrect. I do this because what gets written by knowledgable people lives forever, correct or incorrect, and we've got about all the incorrect cast bullet information we need floating around now. “Joe Brennan

I think maybe you have a problem there Joe cause I don't see all that incorrect information floating around!  Man, you have a long row-to-hoe ahead of you if you're set out to disprove all of these bits of forever incorrect informations. Most of the forum members just simply respond favorable or against a topic and then the rest of us can judge for ourselves. Don't get me wrong Joe, I appreciate your data and inputs, but I'll still be THE JUDGE for myself, thanks anyway...........Dan

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Ed Harris posted this 09 October 2007

Joe,

Thanks for posting this.

Given that the article is dated, and the fact manufacturing changes at Alliant have affected other of their powders, the burning rate of powders, current Red Dot could be faster than older Hercules product used when writing the original article.

My original load tests were mostly with jacketed bullets. What cast bullet shooting I did was in the larger cases and bore sizes.

If you get leading - gee that's known as a clue! Reduce the load.

Accurate cast bullet loads which don't lead are safe. If the load leads, that means something is wrong.

Duh?

If people can't figure this out, they should stick to buying .22 ammo at Walmart and not use any bore cleaner unless it costs at least $2 a fluid ounce.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 09 October 2007

What I want to know is how in the hell did anyone survive reloading before computers came on the scene??? For that matter how in the hell did people survive anything before computers came on the scene. 

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billwnr posted this 09 October 2007

Joe, you will henceforth be known as Joe Quixote.

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R. Dupraz posted this 09 October 2007

Waaay more information that this feeble mind can digest. Have enough trouble just keeping the fundamentals straight for every shot. Think I'll just head for the range, to get  some more trigger time and  try to figure out why I'm screwing up all those world record groups., heh, heh, heh.

cheers

RD

 

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Ed Harris posted this 09 October 2007

If Joe doesn't have enough projects for this winter I'd suggest that he take a look at the new Speer No. 14 and the new Lyman Manuals and see how Quick-Load compares with those. It would be a good way to evaluate the software or the loading manuals, take your pick, before anyone goes out to buy it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 09 October 2007

Ed Harris wrote: If Joe doesn't have enough projects for this winter I'd suggest that he take a look at the new Speer No. 14 and the new Lyman Manuals and see how Quick-Load compares with those. It would be a good way to evaluate the software or the loading manuals, take your pick, before anyone goes out to buy it.

Quickload is a program/product sold by NECO. I asked them for a copy, free, but they didn't respond. (Years ago they gave me a fire-lapping kit free that I tested and wrote up for the ASSRA news.) Adrian Pitfield, who knows a lot about loading for handguns and wrote a lot for the book, knows the man in Germany who wrote the Quickload program. (Adrian and Norm Johnson are Yahoo guys that I miss here. More of the folks who don't like this forum format.) Rumour has it that Mic MacPherson wrote the algorithms that the German guy used. Quickload has been around at least three years that I know of. It is uncanny in it's ability to forecast MV; we know that because we have chronographs to check it. Pressure? I don't know.

I'm sure that there's somebody reading this who has and knows more about QL than I.

Pat; if you're puzzled about what to get me for Christmas, Quickload solves your problem. Just more than I can pay right now.

Google on that rascal for the straight poop.

joe b.

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shooter93 posted this 13 October 2007

I have quick load but I'm not real good at using all it's functions...but that's my fault. I don't use it much but one thing I did find is that a number of the loads I shoot regularly with no signs of pressure and are standart loads for double rifles....quick load shows them as being waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy over pressures. High enough to take a double gun apart. Double guns as you know aren't high pressure arms really...especially pre war guns. they are reugulated at one velocity with one bullet weight...ie....pressure and they are VERY finicky. I"ve been fortunate to be able to find the correct load for a number of people who shoot them....they don't reload let alone cast. An interesting thing to work on but for them atleast....quick load isn't even a starting point.

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CB posted this 14 October 2007

shooter93,

Most reloading manuals recommend not to gauge powders strictly by burn rate to predict how a certain powder may behave. From what I understand, the powder manufacturer's develop powders according to 'applications' pertaining to a certain caliber, cartridge volume, working pressure and velocity. The powders are not just made a little faster or a little slower. That is why I have always liked reading the Fouling Shot Journal and reading the match results to see what actually is being shot and is a successful powder for CB shooting. You could start a post on your double rifle data and pass along what has worked for you. It may help out some other CB shooters find a good starting point.  Thanks..........................Dan

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CB posted this 14 October 2007

shooter93 wrote: I have quick load but I'm not real good at using all it's functions...but that's my fault. I don't use it much but one thing I did find is that a number of the loads I shoot regularly with no signs of pressure and are standart loads for double rifles....quick load shows them as being waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy over pressures. High enough to take a double gun apart. Double guns as you know aren't high pressure arms really...especially pre war guns. they are reugulated at one velocity with one bullet weight...ie....pressure and they are VERY finicky. I"ve been fortunate to be able to find the correct load for a number of people who shoot them....they don't reload let alone cast. An interesting thing to work on but for them atleast....quick load isn't even a starting point.

Please give me/us some examples of QL estimating the HIGH pressures.

Thanks;

joe b.

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shooter93 posted this 14 October 2007

Joe...I'll have to load quick load up again...I never put it on this computer because I just don't use it much...Off the top of my head I can tell you when I punched in 80 grains of IMR 4831 for the 450/400 I get/got the big red letters saying excessive pressure, I just can't remember off hand what it was....but high enough that had I thought it was correct I wouldn't even chance it in a double gun. That load is a “standard” load for the caliber. The new Kynoch ammunition is loaded to original velocities at lower pressures they claim. In my rifle they are to hot....the cases won't just fall out but with the 80 grain load they do. Tilt the gun and emptied fall out...a desireable thing when you chase things that want you dead. The 80 grain load also shoots the correct velocity and will put 2 rights and 2 lefts into 2-1/2 inches at 100 yds which is a very nice shooting double. Ofcourse when you're first starting to regulate you start at 70 to 75 grains but I have regulated or helped regulater a dozen rifles in that caliber and they all shot right with that load. It's interesting to see a load come together...often they will shoot almost perfect elevation but wide spread. They will keep coming closer till they finally cross at which point you're to fast so you go back to the last load that didn't cross and you're there. they are very fussy as to holding technique and heated barrels. You always shoot right then left...never 2 rights then 2 lefts.

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shooter93 posted this 14 October 2007

Ok Joe...another small glitch...this computer has no floppy drive so that means I'll have to dig out the older back up one. I'll post to see if someone who has it can punch in that load for me quick. I may have the reading it gave me in my notes.

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rnricky posted this 16 February 2010

I am a shotgun, pistol, and rifle reloasder. I was wondering if there is a RED DOT load for 7.62x39 SKS. Using LEE CTL 312-160 2R Water Dropped WW @ 169.9 Gr. TL w LLA, sized to .308 w GC & relubed after GC w LLA?

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Ed Harris posted this 17 February 2010

I would not exceed 6 grains of Red Dot in the 7.62x39 with the Lee bullet. This won't cycle the action, so you will have to work the bolt manually.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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canalupo posted this 17 February 2010

Is this one of those weird “I say toe ma toe and you say toe may toe” things. No reloader is his right mind would try to put the same weight powder in every casing. It is simply dumb.

Bob D

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tturner53 posted this 18 February 2010

I think it's 'mater,

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JetMech posted this 18 February 2010

canalupo wrote: Is this one of those weird “I say toe ma toe and you say toe may toe” things.  No, it's one of those wierd Joe Brennan things. He seems to spend his life either trying to disprove what some else has said or, if he can't disprove it, include it one of his books, without giving credit to the original author. An interesting character.

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runfiverun posted this 18 February 2010

man bill hit that one outta the park. i don't think “the load” is any more than the books are, a “guideline". a suggestion if you will,and you still have to work to it. maybe 12 grs is better for you. or even 4895 which is generally my start powder.

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tturner53 posted this 18 February 2010

No expert here, but I've used 'the load' in many cartidges and it's worked great. I've read many posts by people claiming the same, and some who use it as a starting point for accuracy developement, saying that if it won't shoot 'the load' well it may not shoot anything well. It's kinda like WD40, good for a lot of things, but may not be the best thing for everything all the time. I've also used Joe's 'Cook Book' loads and found them helpful too.

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