Suggestions for weighing bullets

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  • Last Post 03 June 2016
mtngun posted this 28 May 2016

I keep saying that I will do some sort of test with weight-sorted bullets.    OK, so this afternoon I cast a few bullets with a single cavity mold -- I deliberately selected a single cavity mold for this test because previous attempts at weighing bullets from multi-cavity molds resulted in sorting bullets by cavity, because there is often a few tenths of a grain difference between cavities.   

As the bullets dropped out, I sometimes visually inspected them and rejected incompletely filled bullets.    But I didn't have time to visually inspect every single bullet, nor is my poorly lit casting area conducive to visual inspection, anyway.   Net result:   I estimate that I missed about half the visual defects.

Mold was aluminum and alloy was Rotometals reclaimed shot.   PID controlled pot set at 380C (716F).   Aimed ladle held 1/4” away from the sprue, continuing pouring the entire ladle even after the cavity is full and allowing the excess to dribble back into the pot -- what I call the “overpour” technique.

Here's the weight distribution for the 292 bullets that survived my haphazard visual inspection:

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tlkeizer posted this 28 May 2016

Greetings,

Mtngun I am not nearly as nitpicky as you as I am shooting a couple original 45-70's, and segregate by grain, not 10'th of grain. I also enjoy reading your results, and politely envy your ability to do what you are doing; if I have a choice in another life I would ask for dexterity. That said, I am surprised you did not segregate the 10 rounds or so of 127.3 and 127.4 as they are minor in number, and IMHO would have been a nice set for comparison, realizing you had only 10 or so and could not duplicate rounds without another casting (and then would probably not have the same exact lead solution). I include this only because of your last line of “other thought or suggestions".

1.2” on last 10-shot group outing? Nice shooting.

As a thought, the 126.9 set would be a nice comparison to the mixed weights. For me and my Trapdoors I have not seen an advantage in groups for 10th of a grain versus 1 grain sets, I have tried both.

TK

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onondaga posted this 28 May 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=608>mtngun

All of your bullets are within 1% of 127.1 grains. The 1% is where I set  the standard for my match bullets in any caliber or weight.

When I get bullets farther than 1%, i don't use them in matches. I may load them for practice or return them to the pot.

Your casting is very consistent and quite good for match bullets.

Gary

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mtngun posted this 28 May 2016

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=608>mtngun

All of your bullets are within 1% of 127.1 grains. The 1% is where I set  the standard for my match bullets in any caliber or weight.

When I get bullets farther than 1%, i don't use them in matches. I may load them for practice or return them to the pot.

Your casting is very consistent and quite good for match bullets.

Gary Thanks for the kind words, Gary.  :)

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mtngun posted this 28 May 2016

tlkeizer wrote: I am surprised you did not segregate the 10 rounds or so of 127.3 and 127.4 My theory was I was looking for outliers on the light side of the distribution, caused by internal voids that could  unbalance the bullet.     

What causes a bullet to be heavier than average?   A sprue tit?   Lack of internal voids?   Mold not closing 100%?    Sprue plate lifting up?

I suppose that with experience, one could learn what range of weight is normal for a particular mold & alloy, and reject any bullet that falls outside that range?   Say anything less than 126.9 or greater than 127.3 for this particular combination?    That would be a much faster way to weight-sort.   

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Paul Pollard posted this 28 May 2016

Mtngun said, “My theory was I was looking for outliers on the light side of the distribution, caused by internal voids that could  unbalance the bullet."

By inspecting, weighing and noting external voids and marking each bullet on a sheet, I found the voids fell right in the bell curve. I haven't found a way to see inside the bullet.

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mtngun posted this 28 May 2016

Paul Pollard wrote: By inspecting, weighing and noting external voids and marking each bullet on a sheet, I found the voids fell right in the bell curve. I haven't found a way to see inside the bullet.What was your conclusion, Paul?    Do you weight-sort your match bullets?

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Paul Pollard posted this 28 May 2016

I don't weight-sort bullets. By carefully controlling casting techniques the single cavity Eagan casts into .1 to .16 grains. Each end of the bell curve is thrown back into the remelt container. The remaining .1 grain spread is put in a box without segregating. This is only an 80 grain bullet. The keepers are 90 - 95% of total cast. My 30 caliber bullets have a 1.0 grain spread in 2 cavity. (200 grain). Haven't figured that out.

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Premod70 posted this 28 May 2016

Nice work, another study may be the temp of the mold and it's effect on bullet weight. I cast a hundred, kept them segregated by number, measured mold temp before I broke the sprew and did find the bullet weight varied with the mold's temp, not much but enough that I gave up weighting and now monitor my mold temp as I cast.

Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.

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Brodie posted this 28 May 2016

mtngun, Like you I have often wondered what causes a bullet to  be heavier than every other from a casting session. Following my last session at the casting pot I found that some of my 280 gr .366 bullets from my NOE mold were a grain or even two heavier than the majority.  While they fall into the 1% range suggested by Gary I got to looking at them.   A few had a sprue “tit” or slightly raised sprue cut.  A couple I suspect were heavier because I had not held the mould tightly closed and were egg shaped (I have not miked them for roundness).  The majority of the bullets I cast (271 to 272gr) had some tear out of the sprue.  A failing of mine for not letting the sprue harden sufficiently I suspect.  I get a little anxious and hurry more than I should.  I my case I believe that it is the above than caused the majority of the bullets to be light (within a 1/2% of total weight).  In my case it is not so much that a few bullets are “heavy” as that a bunch are “light".  I am not suggesting that this correlates with your results and is the same reason as your few “heavy” bullets, but I feel that it is true in my case.  It is also more common for me with harder alloys.  Anything from Lyman #2 (+- 15 BHN) and above I experience more ” sprue tear out ''.   Softer than L#2 I get much less. Keep Up the Good Work.  I enjoy reading your stuff a great deal and am learning more every day. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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joeb33050 posted this 30 May 2016

    Do bullet weight variations affect shot location/group size? All shooting with Striker 22-250. I weighed a set of 225646Ms, loaded the outliers, see TARGET # for weights, and shot in 5 shot groups-thus 12, 5 shot groups, with 45 X 58.5 grain bullets and 3 X 58.4 grain bullets making up the other 4 in each 5 shot group. Also loaded  5, 5 shot groups with 58.3 and 58.4 grain bullets. All 7/Titegroup, Lymoly above GC, 2.350” OAL.     SET OF GAS CHECKED 225646M WEIGHED 5/27/16 SIZED .225, LYMOLY ABOVE GAS CHECK   7.0/TITEGROUP, 2.350” OAL     GRAINS QTY TARGET # GROUP SIZE   55.7 1 1 0.950   55.7 1 2 0.750   56.1 1 3 1.750   57.1 1 4 1.250   57.4 1 5 1.075   57.7 1 6 1.400   57.9 1 7 1.150   58 1 8 2.200   58.1 1 9 1.050   58.1 1 10 1.000   58.2 1 11 1.625   58.3 20       58.4 15 3 Test     58.5 45 45 Test     58.8 4 ss     59.6 1 12 1.400     96       The 12 groups with outliers averaged 1.3” Targets 4 and 5 had the outlier, third shot, sorta out. Target 8 had the second and third shots sorta out.   Then shot the 5 5 shot groups loaded with 58.3 and 58.4 grain bullets. The 5 groups averaged 1.34.   Then shot 5 of the 227-80 bullet, none hit the paper.        

joeb33050 posted this 30 May 2016

Test 12 groups

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joeb33050 posted this 30 May 2016

5 5 shot groups

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mtngun posted this 30 May 2016

Excellent data, Joe.  :)

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joeb33050 posted this 30 May 2016

So here's the story. You're a “gloved hand” guy, afeared of whacking sprue plates with a yellow-headed plastic mallet-wood handle. So, you gloved-hand the sprue plate, and the sprue is still soft and your gloved hand rips a hole out of the bullet base. If you wait till the sprue is hard, you can't gloved hand the sprue plate, you give it a whack with a stick, leaving a tit on the bullet base. I know you do! Now, what you should do is get a mallet, unless-as I suspect- you have one already. Let the sprue HARDEN, whack the sprue plate open, and - here it comes-

re-almost-close the sprue plate so no lead is visible in the sprue hole/s WHACK the sprue plate, flattening them horrible bullet base tits, “coining” the bullet does anyone remember “coining"? then open the mold, let the bullet/s drop out PERFECT BASES!!!

If it takes too long for the sprues to harden, get a saucer and a wet sponge, put the bottom of the mold on the sponge and cool it off.

Bent sprue plates? Misaligned mold halves? Warped molds? Blown up pots?

All BS.

Holes in bullet bases? Gone! Tits on bullet bases? Gone!

It is SOOOOO easy!

 

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joeb33050 posted this 30 May 2016

mtngun wrote: Excellent data, Joe.  :)

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mtngun posted this 30 May 2016

All evidence suggests that variation in bullet weight has NO effect on accuracy. Why are people weighing bullets? Do they have evidence to the contrary?  Joe, do you expect cast bullet shooters to be rational and make decisions based on evidence?  :D  :D  :D   Since when?  :D  :D  :D

I can only speak for myself.    I am weighing some bullets in order to say that I've tried weighing bullets.   If I find a bunch of outliers and see an improvement in accuracy by culling the outliers, maybe I'll become a believer.   If I don't find a bunch of outliers or if I don't see an improvement by culling outliers, then I'll move on.   So far I'm seeing a normal looking bell curve.  

I don't doubt that internal voids can cause fliers, but .... are internal voids una-void-able, or can we largely eliminate them with good casting technique?

Besides internal voids, the only other reason I can come up with for a bullet to pass visual inspection yet be an outlier on weight would be if the mold did not close all the way.   That does happen, but unless it is a bore riding bullet it shouldn't affect accuracy much.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 June 2016

good stuff, guys .

LOOK MA ! JOE CAN SHOOT !!

ken

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John Alexander posted this 01 June 2016

Thanks for the table mtngun.

I am one of those gloved hand guys (sounds sinister) but I won't plead guilty to the sins Joe “knows” I am guilty of.  Down pressure and good timing result in visually “perfect” basses every time.  I wouldn't shy away from whacking the sprue plate to even up bases but never see one that needs it.   That said my results of tests to see if bullet weighing is necessary matches Joe's results.  I have tried light vs. “good”, heavy vs. “ good”, and my favorite mix of light and heavy vs. “good”.  I have repeated several times over the years with the same results ”€œ the bad bullets shoot as well as the good ones.  Of course all those groups averaged about 1moa and results might be different at the .5moa level.   The results also might have been different if there had been a greater spread in weights because of poor casting method.   All this shooting by the way with 10.7”, 9”, and 8” twists and 70 to 85 grain bullets in 223s.

John

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joeb33050 posted this 01 June 2016

A 5 shot 5 group Striker average, 225646M, .225", Lymoly, of 1.185" This with UNWEIGHED bullets. The 225415 doesn't do well. I wonder how these groups compare with Contender groups. Anyone but me impressed?

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joeb33050 posted this 01 June 2016

Graph showing 225646M and Titegroup, if I only knew how to get it on here. Total of 179 five shot groups, all guns/barrels.

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mtngun posted this 01 June 2016

That's quite respectable with the 225646M, Joe.    Especially out of a humble Savage.

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mtngun posted this 01 June 2016

Joe's chart.   I screencaptured the spreadsheet chart, saved it as a JPG, and uploaed it to my favorite photo host.

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John Alexander posted this 02 June 2016

I am impressed Joe.  I was never able to get any short bullet to average under 1.5 moa. John

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joeb33050 posted this 03 June 2016

The 225646M bullets were gas checked and lubed LLA. Then, sized .225 with Lymoly in the groove above the gas check. Not weighed. Loaded with Titegroup, 7.5 and 8 grains. 5 shot 100 yard groups with the Striker pistol. The five 7.5 grain groups averaged .970" The 8 grain ctgs were snappier and higher and had more recoil. First group was great, then it fell apart. This pistol seems to like 7.5 Titegroup.

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joeb33050 posted this 03 June 2016

The lovely graph is at

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mtngun posted this 03 June 2016

You appear to have found the upper limit for that combination, Joe.   Great shooting, by the way. :) Joe's latest impressive chart:

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