Doughnut for Joe

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  • Last Post 11 March 2016
John Alexander posted this 08 March 2016

In the thread “An accuracy test for Joe B” started by RicinYakima the discussion wandered to the question of ”€œ “If defects make a bullet fly away from the group center why don't we see doughnut shaped groups.”  Joe posted groups shot with bullets he had filed a notch in and sure enough instead of a donut more shots were near the center, more like a donut hole.  Joe challenged anybody to shoot a donut and I said that I would try and donut or not would post the results ”€œ then my regular life got in the way and it took a while. Then after I had shot the donut my computer had a fit and wouldn't let me post pictures.  By now readers have probably forgotten the original discussion but here are the results.   I followed Joe's suggestion and used a 22 rimfire. An old Remington M-37 with the barrel chopped off short. I made a simple gadget to hold the cartridge in my drill press and made the defects with a center drill.  The point on the drill used looked like the 135 degree type so the hole was big and shallow thus as far from the long axis as possible so as to do the most damage. Joe had tried defects that removed .1 and .3 grains from the bullet.  I had suggested that the reason he hadn't seen a donut was the defect was too small compared to the precision of the loads. My first round of defects were .3 grain.  In spite of indexing, I too got a hole instead of a donut with more shots tending toward the center of the group than the outside -- just as Joe had.  This is not a small defect.  On a 200 grain bullet it would be a big ugly 1.5 grain hole on the outside of the bullet. Even so the 7 shots, before I gave up, made a group that was a bit over 2 moa. Not such bad accuracy for bullets with a big defect.   I wound up using a defect that removed 1.1 grains from each bullet or close to 3% of the bullet weight. With that size defect I shot a pretty reasonable donut.  The first three shots were with unmutilated bullets and made a .52 moa three shot group near the aiming point.  I drilled the defect into eight bullets and made crude indicting marks on the rim.  The first two were fired with the index marks at 12.  And the length of the barrel and twist combined to throw the two shots towards 12.  The next two were indexed at three and hit at 3 and 40. The two indexed at 6 made one hole at 7 and the two indexed at 9 went towards 100 with one way out. For the very crude indexing I think this confirms that a point defect will cause a deflection in a predicable direction just as Mann, Vaughn and others claim.  I haven't tried to quantitative check the predicted magnitude of the deflection with Vaughn's formula yet. Note that even with a huge point defect removing 3% of the bullets weight the average deflection was only a bit over 2 moa.  Please excuse two pictures of the target I can't get rid of one. John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 09 March 2016

my first thought is :: if joeb's 223 shoots 6 moa .... how bad do his bullets have to be as they exit the barrel ?? pretty ugly i bet . how would they get that way ??

i have always leartted more from bad loads than good loads ...

” stop doing that “

ken

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frnkeore posted this 09 March 2016

Sorry John, I think Joe's going to say he needs more data :)

I like it though and it might add some credence to indexing out of round bullets or bullets out of mark molds? 

Frank

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John Alexander posted this 09 March 2016

I think I can provide as much extra data as I have time to work on.  That donut did look like the low calorie, low fat kind.

I hate to admit it but the results could be used to argue for indexing although a point defect is quite a different thing than an out of round bullet.  And I have used a lot of powder trying to see if indexing improved the accuracy of bullets that were either out of round and from molds that were offset without being able to see the slightest improvement.

It would be a help for shooting bullets with a large wrinkle on one side but it would be easier to fix the casting problem than to go to the trouble of indexing.

To me the most interesting thing about the results was that a pretty big ugly point defect still allowed accuracy better (i.e. under 2.5 moa) than most cast bullet shooters are achieving.

John

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gpidaho posted this 09 March 2016

John: That's kind of funny! You can't keep from posting double pictures, and I can't post more than one picture on the same post. Then I'm no computer whiz. lol Gp

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JetMech posted this 10 March 2016

It would seem to defy logic, especially in light of experiments conduct by Mann and others, that orienting defects (indexing) would not improve consistency. As to whether this translates to improved groups would appear to be dependent on the degree of defect, position on the bullet, time of flight the defect has to act on the bullet, degree with which the barrel bore modifies the bullet shape, and ensuring there are no other defects or other variables that are unaccounted for.

Have experiments been conducted at extended ranges? It's fairly well know in the long range shooting community that minor bullet variance has little effect on groups until ranges get beyond 600 yards. Then it can be a discriminator.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 10 March 2016

dollar bill ... interesting ::: the barrel modifies the bullet ...

hmmm ... could the reformation ...in the barrel possibly re-swage out ... minor cavities ... and cure the bullet on the way to the muzzle ... at least equal mutilation of perfect and slightly imperfect bullets ...

but at some threshold of mutilation ... the barrel cannot reswage the bullet enough and so the lop-sided bullet flicks off to one side ( yes, or up and down ).

my first emotional thought is that might be the case .... we need to catch some pre-mutilated bullets and see if they are still mutilated when they come to a gentle rest in the wood chip casket ...

thanks ...

ken

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mckg posted this 10 March 2016

I remember a couple of paper articles regarding such testings with cast bullets; both found that nose defects weren't much to worry about. Base defects produced noticeably worse groups.

It has also been said on CB's forums that hollow points improve accuracy because they displace the center of mass of bullets towards the base. Don't Ed and others shoot WC's base forward, knowing that voids are usually located close to it?

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John Alexander posted this 11 March 2016

Although evidence that a point defect causes a predictable deflection seems to superficially argue for indexing.  Looking closer casts doubt.  This predictability only applies to point defects and defects similar to point defect are air voids and large wrinkles on only one side.  The shooter doesn't know where the air voids are so that is out.  Indexing to compensate for large wrinkles is more work than casting better bullets.

i don't know of any evidence that indexing improves the accuracy of out of round bullets or beagled bullets or bullets from mismatched mold halves.  So what can indexing possibly improve relative to actual bullet defects?  Although indexing can obviously compensate for manufactured point defects I doubt that it can improve the accuracy of real bullets with actual defects. I wish shooters who believe that indexing is worthwhile would run experiments to show the rest of us that we should be doing it. That would be real progress and material for a great Fouling Shot article.

John

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mtngun posted this 11 March 2016

Excellent experiment, John.  :)   Thanks for sharing.

I tried to extrapolate your results to estimate how much dispersion I might expect from a high velocity cast bullet.    Dispersion due to imbalance is supposed to be proportional to RPM (at least up to a point where the bullet becomes unstable) so a defect that causes 2 MOA dispersion at 60,000 RPM  might cause 6 MOA dispersion at 180,000 RPM.    If we had a huuuuuge imbalance.  

More likely we'll have small imbalances so our hi-velocity dispersion due to imbalance will be much less than 6 MOA.      Maybe it is only 1 MOA or 1/2 MOA or 1/4 MOA.   But even 1/4 MOA is significant if you have a load that shoots 1 MOA with perfectly balanced bullets.

Thanks again for the excellent experiment.  :fire

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