270 win for cast ??? anyone ?

  • 957 Views
  • Last Post 02 June 2016
Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 March 2016

been fiddling with throaters lately ... wonder why production guys aren't using more 270 win. rifles ??   they have one of the best factory throats ... very genteel ...

anybody seriously give them a honest try ??

yep, no big selection of molds ... but it only takes one .  and that throat should handle everything ...  a custom cheater throat... all legal in production form ... they might have to ban them ...

hey i have a nice new sporter take-off  270 barrel ... been reading joeb's adventures ...

is it spring yet ??

back to work... ken

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
M3 Mitch posted this 31 May 2016

I have never bought a .270 because the G,H, and I setup for .270 would only service that one rifle, while a .310 one can service all sorts of 30 and “32” caliber rifles and handguns. I imagine a lot of people are like that and so avoid that oddball diameter.

That said given what you just posted, maybe if I run into a good Pre-64 in .270 at a gun show...

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 01 June 2016

I've yet to try a 270, Ken.

SAAMI calls out a 47 second per side throat with no freebore per se.     Common twist is 10", not particularly cast-friendly.  

I haven't made up my mind about throats for cast but so far have not seen any difference in the 1.5 - 3 degree range.    1/2 - 1 degree throats seem to need a longer bullet. 

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 June 2016

will consider needing a longer bullet but not sure why ...

a 0.75 degree per side would engrave a length of 0.2 on a bullet ..... if you had a 270 wadcutter bullet it would only need to have a tapered section of 0.2 inches ( g ) ....

add a bore dia nose 0.2 long and another 0.2 rear groove dia. to put into the case, and you still have only a 0.6 inch long bullet .

10-4 on the 10 twist ... although 1 moa is still in range ...

ken

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 01 June 2016

mtngun wrote: I've yet to try a 270, Ken.

SAAMI calls out a 47 second per side throat with no freebore per se.     Common twist is 10", not particularly cast-friendly.  

I haven't made up my mind about throats for cast but so far have not seen any difference in the 1.5 - 3 degree range.    1/2 - 1 degree throats seem to need a longer bullet. 

The throat angle is actually 47' (minutes) 33” (seconds) or just a little more than 3/4 degrees.

I designed this NOE bullet mold, to fit the the neck and throat angle of the chamber, when the GC is at the shoulder/neck junction.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=28_188&osCsid=iiph4octtf6f0p5f43l9cdq085>http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=28188&osCsid=iiph4octtf6f0p5f43l9cdq085 Frank

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 01 June 2016

As someone who shoots an eight inch twist in competition I wouldn't get too stressed out about the 10". John

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 01 June 2016

By comparison, a SAAMI 308 Winchester is 1 3/4 degree per side.    By most accounts the 308 is a cast friendly cartridge?   

Re: length of leade.   Depends on the starting diameter.    In sloppy SAAMI throats, the starting diameter is rarely less than 0.002” over groove diameter.      Here's some numbers I worked out for a 357 barrel where the throat started at .360 and transitioned to a 0.347” bore:

Let theta be the leade angle per side. Length = 0.0065” / tan(theta) If theta = 0.5 degrees then length = 0.75" If theta = 1.0 degrees then length = 0.37" If theta = 1.5 degrees then length = 0.25" If theta = 3.0 degrees then length = 0.12"

From the perspective of the stubby 357 bullets I was shooting, a 1/2 degree leade was a loooong jump to the rifling and didn't shoot worth a darn.    It might work great in a 30 caliber rifle with long 180 - 200 grain bullets that could reach out and grab some rifling.

What is the purpose of the leade?   To guide the bullet straight into the bore without mangling the bullet?   We can agree that the abrupt or missing leades in some black powder cartridges can mangle bullets.    A 90 degree leade would shave lead.   A 45 degree leade would not be much better.     But the 5 degree leade in the 444 Marlin seems to be cast-friendly.      For that matter, an 11 degree forcing cone in a revolver is reputed to be more accurate with cast bullets than a 5 degree forcing cone (I'm not sure that I agree, my most cast-friendly revolver to date sports a 5 degree cone).  

Point being, how “gentle” does a leade need to be to do its job of guiding the bullet into the bore without damage?    Is a 1 degree leade five times better than a 5 degree leade?    In my experience, no.     3 to 5 degrees seems to be gentle enough.   

A long gentle leade does offer the opportunity to use a matching Ardito-style tapered bullet, if you choose to go that route.   It's a proven system.     

Just my 2 cents, subject to change as more data comes my way.  :)

Thank you for correcting my sloppy semantics, Frnkeore.  :)

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 June 2016

mr. mtn ;

you keep confusing me with real-world facts ... ( g ) ...

for example, in visualizing my perfect chamber for my any-day-now super rook .... i first thought the best chamber would be an exactly groove diameter freebore, ” leading ” very gently into the rifling ...and then a perfect groove diameter bullet with a matching gentle tapered section ... and very short bore+ riding nose. perfection, no doubt.


but what if things are off 0.0003 or so ??? all dimensions off 0.0003 ?? additive error and larger groups .... maybe.

then i remembered ardito used a 0.313 bullet in his 0.308 groove barrels.

is it better to squeeze down a fat bullet than to try for a perfect fit ?? so i have a 0.313 throater reamer from ppg now .. it tapers 1.5 degree per side .... to try that concept ....

hard to ignore arditos whole bunch of 1/2 inch groups ... in competition ...

or did he just say 0.313 to get a laugh out of somebody that would fall for the joke ??

oh well, now i got a 308 lilja barrel ... at least that is what the guy i bot it from told me it was .... looks like an e.r.shaw to me ... dang !!

thanks mtn. for the good thoughts.

ken

Attached Files

frnkeore posted this 01 June 2016

Ken, You for got one very important thing that Ardito did. He had a approximently 1/2 deg taper.

As I remember form the FS, many years ago, his taper was .002 above groove diameter to .002 under bore diameter, over a span of .500"?

Frank

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 June 2016

frank ...i hadn't forgot 1/2 degree throat / in fact, i used 1/2 degree in my 40X rimfire ///which is a pretty short bullet .. hmmm ...... i did set it to engrave the nose upon chambering ...as mr. mtn thought necessary for gentle tapers .

i got a couple regional second places with it, and after i sold it it set several high scores ...in the hands of a better shot ...


1/2 degree doesn't guarantee success... i used 1/2 degree throating in a barrel i throated for joeb and it shot worse ( g ) ... of course that was a lowly 223 rem.

must still be some things to learn about ...( g ) ..

ken

Attached Files

Close