The Fouling Shot had a cover photo two years ago (Jan-Feb 2014) that showed a very nice 50 yard group out of a Model 14 using a cast wadcutter. I kept hoping a later story would follow that detailed what the shooter was doing to get such accuracy. Ed had a thread a little while ago on how to get better accuracy out of revolvers and it got me to thinking about getting some better accuracy out of the revolvers I have. One I have is a M&P made in the 1940's and issued to the “Policia Nationale de Columbia". It's never been a shooter and normally uses at least 3/4 of the black at 25 yards. I'd like something that would hold 10 ring at least. What do you do to make your .38 Special a shooter and what's the details of your load and accuracy levels. The cover photo has a 5 shot group that appears to be 1.5” or less. Bill
S&W Model 14 accuracy
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- Last Post 31 January 2016
If you are not an excellent pistol-smith, start by finding one to check specifications on the revolver. You also need a smithy that knows what measurements are needed for cast bullets to work well in a revolver and ask the smithy if the revolver has the potential to be excellent with cast bullets.
The rest is simple, find the bullet and load the revolver likes best. The bullet size should pass the ink smear test when chambered to show contact loading and verify fit to chamber.
Gary
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The revolver is a 1950 era safe queen that appears to have just been taken from a shipping box. The barrel gap is .008.
Now if it was as easy as having a smith build/check out a firearm and certify it as a shooter there would be a lot of winners in the Heavy class for matches. A lot of the details for making a good shooter perform are in the selection of cases, casting, sizing and lubing of bullets along with the alloy and powder selection and charges.
There are some good handgun shooters on this board and hopefully they would share some info.
I do have one sour shooting M&P pre-model 10 and it's a poster boy for what may be bad for accurate revolvers. It does go bang reliably. It's probably also a poster boy for being mishandled and abused during its life.
I did amend my first post as the revolver in question is a Model 14 .38 spl and not a Model 15.
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My Model 14 shoots VERY well. I use the H&G #50BB button nosed wadcutter and also the H&G #251 dbl ended wadcutter. 3.2 grs. of Bullseye behind a .358 wadcutter works quite well in my revolver (under 1” at 25 yards). I did quite well in the local PPC matches with it “Back in the day":
Dale53
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This is my model 10/model 14 wannabe. I shoot the H&G button nose with 3.2g of AA no.7. I have the loads you see seated out long to let them feed in my Rossi 92 clone.
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I too have shot thousands of rounds through S&W Model 14's. Any wadcutter that is short, fired by 2.7 to 3.2 grain of BE will shoot great, if the gun is good! The trick is making the ammo! It has to be consistent, as you know as a bench rest shooter. The key words are: smooth, easy and all alike.
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Good advice from the revolver shooters. I've read some of the old Handloader articles from the 60's-8o's that were in that hardbound book Wolfe publishing put out. Turns out there's some similarities of making good handgun ammo that matches right up agains the good rifle ammo. The tips were: Don't size the bullets too much. Now with what I've learned over the years I'd discount that to: make sure your bullets go into the sizing die perfectly straight to ensure no “angle sizing” of the bullet. Don't overlube your bullets as apparently lube purging on pistol bullets affects pistol accuracy at the 25 and 50 yard targets just the same as it messes with rifle accuracy at the farther distances. The articles talk about only lubing the bottom lube groove on the WC bullets Then there's the little things about how to hold your revolver and squeeze the trigger. Another question for you target handgunners. Did you cast your own bullets or use swaged commercial WCs? In one of Ken Waters' articles one of his guns shot smaller groups with cast bullets over the swaged WCs of either solid bases or hollow bases.
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Back in the day the best factory soft-swaged wadcutters used by the guys at Camp Perry were the Remington and Winchester component bullets. The Remington bullets are still available in bulk and have a heavier skirt than the others current available from Speer, Hornady, Zero, Precision Delta, Star, etc. Shooting from a BSA Martini-Cadet single-shot with Green Mountain barrel and 6X Unertl scope off sandbags the Remington bullets will shoot inch 5-shot groups at 50 yards with 3.0 to 3.2 grains of current Alliant Bullseye, but groups enlarge slightly but are still very good anywhere in the range of 2.8-3.5 grains. Above 3.5 grains and below 2.7 groups go above 3” at 50 yards. With the Saeco double-end, bevel-based wadcutter #348, best grouping in a “standard pressure” non+P load was with 3.5 grains of Bullseye, but with 10-12 BHN alloy and .359-.360” bullets lightly coated with Lee Liquid Alox diluted 50-50 by liquid volume with mineral spirits, accuracy remained excellent throughout the entire subsonic range and groups did not enlarge until transonic buffeting occurred. In .357 Magnum brass 5 grains of Bullseye with the #348 shoots wonderfully, and in a strong gun 9 grains of #2400 in .38 Special brass in Federal cases with Federal 200 primers, at 1.2” OAL gives 900 fps from a Ruger SP101 with 2” barrel or 1030 fps from a 4-inch Police Service Six and shoots like match ammunition! DO NOT shoot these loads in an S&W K-frame!
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed brings up Remington WC bullets. We as cast bullet shooters are taught to ensure our bullets are as “pretty” as possible. I have a box of the Remington bullets and they look like they are dropped in a pile what with all the bumps and dings on them. In spite of that they sure shoot good.
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Should be able to come up with a load that will stay in the 10 ring of a B6 or B8 target at 25 yards without a lot of load work. Many shooters here will get that level of accuracy at 50 yards. A few things to consider.
How well do you shoot a revolver? It can be different than an SA. Maybe a change in grips can help. Also, the older M10's have some fairly small sights. An aperture like a Farrsight will help clean up your sight picture. Or a piece of tape with a small hole in it to look thru on your shooting glasses.
How do your loads work when tested either off the bench or by someone who can shoot a revolver well? It could be worth your while to get a box of known quality W/C's, such as Federal Match and use those to test the abilities of your M10.
Clean the barrel and chamber well before testing and when changing bullet lube or powder charge. It can and does have an effect in most cases.
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Are wadcutters more accurate than SWC or other designs?
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WC's are more accurate until air resistance makes them wobble, about 60 yards in my experience. LBT makes a mould for a WC with ogival (spelling?) nose that others have said are good for 100 yards. After that, SWC's and RN's tend to be better, but that is just my experience. HTH, Ric
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At short ranges up to 50 yards, wadcutters are more accurate. As range increases their dispersion becomes nonlinear. Good roundnosed and SWC bullets would shoot 1-1/2” at 50 yards and in proportion to the range back to 200 yards. At 200 yards properly fitting, well-cast cowboy bullets were the only ones which shot as well as Winchester and Remington 158-grain JSPs in .357, about 4-5 inch ten-shot groups from the Green Mountain barrelled Martini off sandbags with 6x Unertl.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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You could write a book how to make a revolver shoot. 1st.) Determine your actual bore size by slugging your barrel. Say it is over spec. at .358 instead of .357. 2nd) Your cast bullet size needs to be .001 to .002” larger than actual bore dimension. In this example .359 to .360. Make sure your bullet is not sized down when seated in the case. Most neck expanding dies will not size the case to allow a .359+ bullet to be seated without distorting the bullet smaller. 3rd) Your forcing cones in the cylinder need to be bullet size or slightly larger.Again in this case a .359+ bullet through a ,359+ forcing cone into a .358 barrel.. There is no need to send a .358 bullet through a .356 forcing into a .358 barrel and expect it to be accurate. 4th) There a ton of powder bullet combo's that are accurate. My experience is 148gn. WC are accurate around 700 to 750 FPS. My cast 158 SWC or RN need to be going 750 to 800 FPS. for the most accuracy.
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