31141s seated below the neck in 3006

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  • Last Post 27 October 2015
Pentz posted this 31 December 2014

My NOS 1919 Winchester 5-groove barrel now has a grand total of 846 cast bullet rounds through it; having never been on a receiver no jacketed rounds have touched it.  I'm still trying to find what it will shoot other than the boooooring 16.5/2400 under a 311299 sized to .311.   Yesterday cabin fever drove me to the range with a range of loads including some 180 gr 31141s from an old Lyman mold sized to .312.  The fat nose jams the bullets into back into the case; the base protrudes .176” below the neck into the case. Nine rounds sailed into 1.1” at 100 yards; it was about 20 degrees with swirling breezes and I had one misfire on a Remington 9.5 primer, so the group “doesn't count” unfortunately.  In fact, I had several misfires that day and my firing pin channel needs to be degreased before our first military match January 7th.   It would appear that the nose is sealing the throat sufficiently to offset the protruding base.  From searching this site I see no safety problem, although it is supposed to degrade accuracy.   I'm going to pursue more load development with this bullet, got too far down the 311299 200-gr rabbit hole and this will be a welcome diversion.  Thoughts? 

Match Director

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 31 December 2014

maybe the reports of bad results with bullet bases extending below the case neck :

is really because that is just more of the bullet that is not supported at ignition.

and not so much that the bullet base is melted by being in the furnace room.

your extra fat forward part that *was * in the throat ... helped the alignment.

but probably would be even better if re-throat or resize the front of the bullet. i think can't re-throat by the rules ?

looks like that barrel has potential !!

ken

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John Alexander posted this 31 December 2014

Pentz, Very nice group.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Like other shooting disciplines we have our share of of warnings and taboos and many of them are just BS based on nothing more substantial than “it just seems reasonable.” But if it is repeated often enough and long enough it becomes a “Well Known Fact." 

I suspect that Ken's suggestion may be the root of this “Well Known Fact” but its origin may be just a handy excuse for the poor results of a poor load/rifle combination.  On the other hand seating the base below the neck may actually cause problems in some cases we just don't a very good job of ever finding out.

 If more people would post their experience we might eventually get a handle on this and other bits of conventional wisdom that may, or may not, be based, or partially based, on reality.

I have seated bullet bases below the neck and gotten good accuracy and no leading and many others have as well, but we keep on repeating the taboo.

John

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Pentz posted this 31 December 2014

Well, as long as it's safe. I was tired and cold upon measureing and a remeasure gives me .910. Of course that last round could have been 2” out. Throating is not allowed. It's in a Boyds stock and tolerates nothing other than free recoil. Still working on that aspect. More time, more rounds downrange. If it does not repeat consistently then back to square one.

Match Director

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muley posted this 02 January 2015

you have a nice round group. you may want to try a different orimer, if you had misfires

with the 91/2. try again.

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cheatermk3 posted this 09 January 2015

Was that the load you shot yesterday?

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Pentz posted this 09 January 2015

At 100 yes. Too much wind drift at 200 and used noe 312299 sized .311 instead.

Match Director

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Wineman posted this 10 January 2015

I am going to run some 311299's through a K31 with about the same seating depth (gc at start of shoulder). I will report after next week. Plan on a 20 grain charge of SR4759, and WLR's.

I have never had a misfire but did have a primer leak on an edge on my M1917 at the last match. During loading, I felt one go in really easily, but did not mark the case. The back story is that I decapped one case who's shoulders I had crushed, seating the bullet. The WLR looked good, so I put it back in the box. It was in the batch I seated, and again, I neglected to mark it. The shot fired and there was a small cloud of smoke around the rifle. The bottom of the case looked like the solid booster on the Shuttle Challenger (no disrespect intended) with a smoke mark on the side of the primer. Like most things bad, it is a series of small, seemingly innocuous events that get you there. Nothing wrong with the rifle, and no gas in my face so the design, 100 years old was sound.

Dave

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Wineman posted this 18 January 2015

Shot a Silhouette Match with TTurner today. 311299 seated in 7.5x55 Swiss to the top of the top band, so GC well below the neck, and into the shoulder. No leading, and good results, except at 500 meters. I was pleased with this combo. I did take Gary's advice and used a Bore Snake every 10+/- shots. I hit Rams but they just sat there. I Like the SR4759 but is really smells when the soot gets on your fingers and clothes. Since it is discontinued, I need to find something else.

Dave

Dave

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Dirtybore posted this 10 July 2015

Wineman, I also had that same primer leak take place on a couple of occasions. Over the years, I've used CCI primers in almost all loads. Back in the early 1990's when primers got scarce, I bought 2 bricks of Winchester primers.

I've been using the Winchest primers in all of my cast bullet loads and then one day was preparing jacketed loads for a .243 and 30-06 and used the Winchester primers. Nothing else changed in the long used and proven loads in those two rifle. While shooting both guns, two primers leaked in both rifles. I will never use a Winchester primer in a jacketed load again. They will be used only in my cast bullet loads. The CCI primers can be used in either load type though I will save them for the high pressure jacketed loads. I haven't figured out what caused the leakage but don't want it to take place again.

If you know why it takes place, I'd sure appreciate a reason or what takes place that makes it happen.

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Dirtybore posted this 02 August 2015

Pentz: I've had the same problem in my Winchester 94, in 30-30. Even though I size the bullet .309", the non-sized nose area is too big and often jams the rifle. In other words, will not allow the cartridge to completely chamber. I also tried deep seating the bullet just as you did and though that helped, it wasn't a 100% fail safe sollution. I still had some cartridges that wouldn't chamber.

I'm hoping to find some way to size the bulet nose to .300” and that would solve the problem. Finding such a tool appears to be a hunt for the Holy Grail.

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muley posted this 03 August 2015

Dirtybore, consider a “bump die” to taper the nose. maybe a 1 degree or 1 and a half

degree and taper to first band.

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Dirtybore posted this 06 August 2015

Where does one get a bump die for squeesing the nose?

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muley posted this 08 August 2015

have your gunsmith make up a bump die by using a 1 degree throating reamer and hold

it back as needed to get your taper on the bullet.

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Dirtybore posted this 27 October 2015

I have but one pound of SR4759 and have been wondering what the replacement powder will be.

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gnoahhh posted this 27 October 2015

RL-7, 2400, 4227. I too fear the day my stash of 4759 runs out. Thankfully I hoarded enough to last me a few more years.

I have a .30 throater reamer, 1½º included angle I would be happy to farm out if you wish to make a nose bump die.

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onondaga posted this 27 October 2015

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7960>Pentz

That is shooting very nicely for you. I wouldn't fix it either! That is about the same as my best will do in 30-06 from my cherry 1903A3.

I use H4895 and new surplus IMR 7383. Actually the IMR shoots a tiny bit better. Both my loads are hunting loads at ~2150 fps. They group just  1.2” at 100 but well under 1” at 50.

My Lee 170Gr FNGC from a honed mold size/checks at 3105” to fit. I size my other bullets for that rifle there. They slip fit the throat. The Lee C312-185-1R shoots best but the round nose is not best on game for me.

I have also shot the RD 165 FNGC and it will group 1"@  50 for me with H4895.

The 165, 170 and 185 all seat to engage the ball seat and their checked bases extend past the neck length a bit.

If you will be hunting with your 30-06, consider the H4895 and IMR 7383. They are both soft push start powders that work well with heavy cast bullets in the caliber. The 2400 powder gives a hot fast start and will bump up soft bullets well but all my bullets are Lyman #2 alloy at BHN 15 and slower powders work better for me with #2 alloy.

I bet your 200 gr bullet would really like the IMR 7383 and you can't overload that powder in 30-06 so it is very safe to try and has a very significantly lower ES than H4895 or 2400. I shoot 40 gr IMR 7383 with the 185 gr Lee. 7 gr BPI filler in that load closes groups well too.

If you are interested in the IMR 7383, I get it for $60/7 pounds at: http://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html>http://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html

It is NEW, not pull-down Mil powder that is a contract volume substitute for IMR 4831 and terrific for heavy cast bullets in 30-06.

Gary

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