John Alexanders article in the TFS

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  • Last Post 07 June 2015
PETE posted this 29 November 2014

John, Read your article in the latest issue of TFS on the NOE 227 80 SP with a great deal of interest. Been looking for a heavier bullet for my Sav. Mod. 12. Emailed Al about the mould asking what this mould will cast out of Lino and he sent me the bore riding dim. .219” out of WW's

With that in mind a preamble and some questions.

I have three of NOE's .22 moulds. Two of  them are so far oversize in the bore ride I'd have to come up with a swage of some kind to get them to work. The one mold that works perfectly is the NOE 225 60 RN which mikes .2185"-.219".

So.... Question #1 - Why the 227 in the description? Diam.?

Question #2 - Being a little gunshy on NOE moulds I'm wondering what the bore ride on the mould you got measures. I'm assuming your casting your bullets out of Lino. If not what is your alloy? Pete

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John Alexander posted this 30 November 2014

Pete wrote:  "So.... Question #1 - Why the 227 in the description? Diam.? Question #2 - Being a little gunshy on NOE moulds I'm wondering what the bore ride on the mould you got measures. I'm assuming your casting your bullets out of Lino. If not what is your alloy?" Pete ===== Hi Pete,

1--The drawing I sent Al called for .227” driving bands and that's what I got and that's the name Al hung on the mold which seems reasonable.  I have found that .226” or even .227” work best in most factory chambers and factory chamber are what I shoot. The .225” or even smaller for 22 bullets that almost all commercial molds seem to produce may be OK in custom benchrest chambers but that's not what I (or most folks) shoot.

2 -- I am in a motel in Horseheads NY.  I will measure and answer after I get home.

John

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PETE posted this 30 November 2014

John,

I figured that the .227 was the base diam.  Just wanted to be sure. Look forward to hearing what your  bore riding diam. is.  More questions would be.... What alloy are you using and what powders and charges have you tried? No sense re-invenring the wheel if your not satisfied with what you've tried. Would like to try a bullet wgt. that took advantage of the 1-9” twist on my rifle. The  NOE 60 grain I have that fits very well does pretty well at 100 yds. Pete

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billwnr posted this 02 December 2014

It looks like John shot this bullet at the Nationals. He shot twice in Hunting rifle so it's kinda hard to see how this bullet performed.

John, which of your two entries was with this bullet?

Bill

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John Alexander posted this 02 December 2014

Pete, The noses on bullets from my NOE 22780SP are .2196 with an alloy that is mostly wheelweights but also includes an unknown percentage of scrap bullets some of which were linotype -- sorry I don't have a better answer.  The BHN = 13-14 on my LBT tester. That should be a good size for most 22 CF although in factory rifles only some 223Rem usually have a have a twist fast enough (9").  However, in my rifle the bullets shot slightly better after I used a layer of Al foil to beagle it a bit.  I will fire up the pot with linotype soon and let you know the nose diameter for Linotype.

Bill, I only entered once. That other Alexander is my brother.  I did shoot Mitch's rifle and loads in the quarter bore.  My load for the NOE bullet -- 5.3 grains of H. TiteGroup and WSR, LBT Blue in area ahead of gas check and thin coat of White Label's X-Lox.

Shortly before I packed up and took off for Pioneer, the rifle was shooting at least as well with the NOE bullet as it had in 2012 and 2013 with my Mos bullet -- but I obviously didn't once the shooting started on Saturday.  I know that none of you have ever had this happen but the match scores just weren't as good. 

John

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PETE posted this 03 December 2014

Thanks John, Ordered up one of those moulds. In the comment section I told them to cut it to cast the same as the one he miked on his desk (.219) he said was made with WW's. 

So in a few days I'll be able to cast some out of different alloys so see which fits the best in my Sav. Mod. 12 with 9” twist. The nose on an NOE 60 RN I've got casts .219 out of Lino and is the best shooting .22 mould I've got. Does real well at 100 yds. Not to bad at 200 but should be able to do better.

In the ASSRA we shoot .22 RF at 200 yds. shooting in the low to mid 240's so will be interesting to compare the two bullets to see if this bullet does better.

Besides.... You look kind of lonely being the only one to shoot a .22 cal. :D If it works out I'll give it a try in the Postals.

Pete

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RicinYakima posted this 03 December 2014

John,

That is a common occurrence with “out of town” matches. By the time I drive, with a 5th wheel, 2000 miles to a nationals, I am pooped. At my age I need at least a week and a 5th of Scotch to recover from all that driving.

Ric

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OU812 posted this 03 December 2014

John, Do you think this 80 gr. bullet will work in a 1-12” twist barrel. I know some longer 30 caliber bullets shoot fine in my 1-12” twist Remington (no key holing)

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John Alexander posted this 03 December 2014

OU812 wrote: John, Do you think this 80 gr. bullet will work in a 1-12” twist barrel. I know some longer 30 caliber bullets shoot fine in my 1-12” twist Remington (no key holing)

I am pretty sure it will not stabilize in a 1 in 12” twist.  At .9” the NOE 80 grain is the same length as my Mos 85 grain bullet shown beside the NOE 80 in the picture. When I designed the Mos bullet  I made it as long as I dared based on my experience with several other 22 cast bullets shot in rifles with twists of 8", 9", 10", 10.7", 12", 14", and 16".  Many of these bullet/twist combinations wouldn't stabilize of course.  Some would just barely work with some tipping but still good accuracy.  When I examined these marginal cases they all matched what Greenhill predicted except with a constant of about 160 instead of 150. I know there are more sophisticated ways to predict stabilization but this modified Greenhill seemed to be on for 22 cast bullets at the usual cast bullet speeds.  Since the NOE 80 grain is the same length as the Mos which sometimes tips just a bit with low velocity loads at 200 yards with a 9” twist I doubt that even a 10” twist will do it.

The way to be sure is to try it which I would be glad to do except I don't have a rifle with a 12” twist.  I do have a 10” twist Hart barrel but it is off the rifle. I would be glad to send you a small batch of the NOE bullets to try in your rifle.  It would be worthwhile information to know for sure.  PM me your address if you want to give it a try.

John

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nimrod posted this 04 December 2014

I just would like to know who is responsible for that real sharp pointy nose on the NOE 80 grain bullet. The one that will poke holes in the side of your fingers if you reach into a pile of them and grab too hard? Got to be careful when pushing gas checks on them too!

RB

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OU812 posted this 04 December 2014

John, Offer accepted. You have PM

Keith

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PETE posted this 06 December 2014

John,

Got the mould today and cast up a coupla hundred breaking it in and finding out the best way to get good bullets.

It's definitely a mould that would work best with a bottom pour pot. I cast with a ladle and found I got good bullets holding the dipper about an inch above the mould. If I hold it any closer I'll get fine fins on the point. No big deal as they break off when you twist them between your fingers.

Used range scrap as that's what was in the pot. The bore riding porrin cast right at .2185-.219". Groove diam. was right at .227". Two of the cavities averaged right at 79.1 grs. and the other at 78.8 grs.

Gas checks are a little tight but go on ok.

Only bad thing is that the rifle has practically no throat so the gas check is slightly below the neck.

Pete

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joeb33050 posted this 10 December 2014

I got my mold, 4 cavity, Monday, and cast Tuesday. First try with an aluminum mold is always frought, but got some good bullets. Today will be better. I measured 10 at random.Weight 78.3 to 78.7 grains, Nose, perpendicular to parting line at the first band .2193"-.2198"Bands, perp to parting line, .2278"-.2281" Bright, shiny and sharp.  The sprue sticks to the forward black sprue plate stop screw, PITA. The nose punch made a line = step on bullet nose, a couple of turns with the cricket fixed that.  Gas checks went on easily. Sized in .228” die, lubed above GC only. Beautiful bullets, the mold is just great. 

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joeb33050 posted this 11 December 2014

My bullets in my Savage 12 FV  fit such that only ~.025” of the first band is out of the case and the gas check is well below the neck. This is pretty well back to the .228 NOE bullet and several LT bullets and some from John A. I'd really like to seat the bullets further out.  I have several lots of cases, different headstamps, and none of them sized Lee Collet or RCBS hold the bullet tightly when it's seated this far in. I've annealed cases also, and sized these latest bullets to .228" I'm suspecting that the bullet is being pushed into some cases some times different amounts. Perhaps breech seating the 22s is an answer. Otherwise, reaming/enlarging the throat or swaging the bullet nose?  Why is it so darn hard, and expensive, getting a 22 to shoot?

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John Alexander posted this 11 December 2014

Joe, Assuming you are sizing the bullets to .226 or smaller, the only thing that could be forcing the bullets to be seated that far back with that bullet is a bore too tight for the nose of your bullets. When you push a sized bullet into the bore fairly hard (20-30 pounds of force) with a dowel and drive it back out where are the marks that stop forward motion?

The 223 rifles I have tried bore riders in (a Ruger, a Remington, 4 Savages, and a Tikka) would all accept a .220 nose - a couple without making decent land marks on the nose.

It is hard to find groove diameter but easy to find bore diameter.  I would suggest slugging just ahead of the throat.  If the groove diameter is under it might, or might not indicate a tight tight bore diameter. With a skinny bladed caliper you might be able to measure bore diameter on the slug.  Has anybody tried that?

I don't know how hard the bullets were that you tried, but the simplest fix might be very soft bullets.  If you have some soft (under 10 BNH) alloy available try some bullets of that. It could be that you have a tight bore that would be just right for your mold in that bore riding design if you can seat a soft bullet so only a little more than the gas check is in the neck

The next simplest fix would be another barrel. You should not be having that kind of trouble just because it is a 22.  Bullets from all of my motley collection of bore riding 22 molds  have have shot well (under 1.5moa) in all the rifles listed above.  There is no magic involved. 

The bore ahead of the throat could be reamed by the right gunsmith with right reamer for the kind of fit you want on the nose. This could give you a custom fit without the swaging that many do.  If your mike is on, a .219” bore should take your bullets made of anything from linotype to 30 to 1.

John

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joeb33050 posted this 11 December 2014

John;Savage 12 FV well used with cast, and another Stevens 200; both 223.Sized .228” or .225". Either size sizing die bumps the bullet to .2205” or so, lots of variation. Either barrel, either size, the longest OAL and somewhere between a sliver and half of the top band is out of the case. Always the gas check is below the neck. The nose is well engraved. The chamber forging for the 12FV barrel has a ?3/8” ? bal seat at .225” or so, grooves ~.2235” or so.I would like a band out of the neck, GC inside neck, engraved nose. I will try soft alloy,, but it's pretty soft now. All this just like the 2 LBT molds, 225646 modified, several of your bullets. But, I'll shoot it first, maybe it'll surprise me.  joe b.

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OU812 posted this 15 December 2014

Today I did a pound cast to check throat dimensions of both my Remington 700 VS 223 caliber rifles. Both had a very short free bore length of about.025-.030” and free bore diameter of .2256. Barrel grooves tapered down to .2246” just after free bore. Case neck diameter measured .2544". All rifling was equal length at throat, so it appears chamber reamer was centered good.

 Both guns (one with factory 20” barrel the other with factory 26” barrel, both have 1-12 twist rifling) have about 200 rounds jacketed rounds fired thru them. I will try this 80 grain bullet to see if they will stabilize in the 1-12 twist.   This is the best picture I could take of pound cast.  

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OU812 posted this 15 December 2014

John sent me a few to try just to see if they make round holes. All bullets look excellent with no defects. Bore ride section measures .2204". He cast these from a mixture of mostly Wheel Weight alloy.  I will size them down smaller to .225.

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John Alexander posted this 15 December 2014

joeb33050 wrote: John;Savage 12 FV well used with cast, and another Stevens 200; both 223.Sized .228” or .225". Either size sizing die bumps the bullet to .2205” or so, lots of variation. Either barrel, either size, the longest OAL and somewhere between a sliver and half of the top band is out of the case. Always the gas check is below the neck. The nose is well engraved. The chamber forging for the 12FV barrel has a ?3/8” ? bal seat at .225” or so, grooves ~.2235” or so.I would like a band out of the neck, GC inside neck, engraved nose. I will try soft alloy,, but it's pretty soft now. All this just like the 2 LBT molds, 225646 modified, several of your bullets. But, I'll shoot it first, maybe it'll surprise me.  joe b. Joe,

Ah hah!!! I finally understand the problem.  I should have thought of that earlier. Yes that long nose of fairly soft alloy will upset if it is sized much at all in a base first sizer.  And as you say there is lots of variation in nose variation which louses up everything.  The easiest fix is buy a Lee nose first sizing die -- low cost, seats gas checks OK and fast.  The noses will stay at the as cast diameter. Then if you want to lube only the grooves you can do it in one of the usual suspects with a die of about the same diameter. The much reduced force on the nose leaves it the same diameter.  Sizing in the Lee first does take add a step of course.

The only fly in the ointment is that Lee (like other manufacturers) thinks that .225” is the largest diameter you ever need to size 22s to get them to shoot and I have found that diameters as large as .227” are sometimes best -- depending on the rifle of course.  It sounds like .225” should work in your rifle.  If not I would try .226.” It is easy to lap out a Lee die.  Pat says to roll some grit into a bunch of bullets and size them and I have found that that works well.  I use 220 grit until you get to the right size and then polish a bit.  Stop often to clean things up and try a bare bullet so you don't overshoot the diameter you want.

Recent threads here have also discussed nose first sizing in Lyman and RCBS lubrisizers. John

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OU812 posted this 16 December 2014

In my Remington the .2204 diameter bore ride section chambers with a little bit of resistance when chambered. Cartridge extracts pretty easily and with bullet still attached in same location on neck.

If your harder bullets are wanting to move when chambered you could crimp case just behind front band to prevent movement.

I loaded these bullets using 10.5 grains of 4759 powder. Velocity should be about 1700-1800. Will try them out tomorrow if it is not too windy here in Georgia. Mild cold front coming in.

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OU812 posted this 16 December 2014

As John predicted this 80 grain bullet did not shoot well in my slower twist 1-12 barrel. Bullets punched round holes, but they were all over the target. Maybe a harder alloy and more velocity will do the trick?

Thanks for the samples John.

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joeb33050 posted this 17 December 2014

I shot “best of the rejects” from the first try casting, 6/Blue Dot, 100 yard 5 shot groups 2.125, 1.1, 3.15, 1.6, 2.05, 1.2   inches This is the best news in months of trying to get a 22 cf to shoot, maybe 12 molds. This bullet will shoot. Now to get a ee sizer, .225, and make it .226. This is great! So far.

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OU812 posted this 18 December 2014

This is good news. Their are lots more different powder combinations to try. I received my new 80 gr. mold today to test.

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John Alexander posted this 19 December 2014

Been off line traveling for two days.  Glad to see some interesting things happening with the 80 grain bullet.

Keep posting your results.

John

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joeb33050 posted this 22 December 2014

I got the Lee sizer, honed the dickens out of it, loaded some with a crimp to hold the bullet. Everything I know is against crimping, but i'll try anything at this point. May shoot Wed.

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John Alexander posted this 07 June 2015

Got back into this thread. Can't remember why. and found that I had said this in post #15:

"It is hard to find groove diameter but easy to find bore diameter.  I would suggest slugging just ahead of the throat.  If the groove diameter is under it might, or might not indicate a tight tight bore diameter. With a skinny bladed caliper you might be able to measure bore diameter on the slug.  Has anybody tried that?"

The first sentence is backward of course. It's bore diameter is what I find hard to measure. Sorry I know it's a little late for corrections but couldn't resist.

John

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