ACCURACY LIKE A 22RF
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- Last Post 30 November 2014
A couple of things you have never discussed about the .22RF that are specific to the .22 RF and not seen in center fire calibers (except mine that shoot well) with cast bullets:
Micrometer gauge the .22 RF bullet of a loaded round, the bullet diameter is larger than the case diameter.
The .22 RF bullet is only heeled because it wouldn't fit into the .22RF case if it wasn't heeled.
I use the Lee Blackout bullet at 1150 fps with H TiteGroup in the small capacity 7.62X39. It is not stellar for me but easily groups <1” at 50 yards. I do better in this caliber at the same velocity with the Lee 90 gr SWC 32 cal pistol bullet sized .3125” and tumble lubed, the little 90 gr SWC easily groups <1/2” at 50 yards and is a fine squirrel load for my single shot Remington Spartan rifle. Seating this SWC bullet effectively heels it in the 7.62X39 case and leaves the body of the bullet fully contacting the chamber throat of my rifle for a slip fit upon chambering. My seating depth equals 1 bullet diameter.
I recommend you try H TiteGroup instead of BlueDot in your .308 project. Hodgdon really brags that TiteGroup ignites well with small charges in large capacity cases. This has proven true for me. I expect the Lee 90 gr SWC sized to your throat diameter would work well.
Gary
Attached Files
I've done subsonic testing (971 fps with a 1.2 long, 430 gr bullet) with the 45/70 and had good results at 100 yards (.84, 4 in .48) but, I gave it up when I started testing at 200 yards with the same load. I don't remember the group size but, it was over 3” @ 200. Not to mention that at 1 oz a shot, it was reducing my good lead pretty fast.
It was a 20 twist barrel and I don't know if it was giving up it's stability or the ES was the problem but, I don't recall tipping being the issue, if it was, I didn't record it in my chrono book. BTW this testing was done in 1991. ES was 19 and SD was 6.9. You have to keep the ES as low as possible to expect to do any good in this area. If I where to do it again, I try to find a powder to limit the ES to 10.
On to the 22rf, in 1990, I chronograph Eley 10X and RWS R50. RWS ran 1108 with a ES of 22 and SD of 7.4, for the Eley, it was ES 18, SD 5.2.
ASSRA shoots 22rf at 200 yards sometimes and these are the records for that:
200 Yard, Benchrest 22RFKelly Match: Benchrest, 5 shots for group, reentry1.315”, 2011Schoyen Match: Benchrest, 10 shots for score, reentry245-6C, 2010 245-6C, 2013 Brockway Match: Benchrest, 10 shots for score, iron sights, reentry245-6C, 22 Benchrest Single Entry: Benchrest, 10 shots for score 247-7c.
A lot better than you would expect but, these are RECORDS and NOT the norm (also note that most are reentry) but, shows what can be done. The above 22 records are what the normal groups and scores are in CF.
Regarding lube grooves, in my 22rf breech seat testing, I have shot at least 1000 rounds w/o leading with non grooved bullets at up to 1300 fps, hand lube with both Alox and Darr lube.
The BO would be a good starting plateform in a bolt action rifle. This is a good site for info on low velocity loading:
Attached Files
A couple of things you have never discussed about the .22RF that are specific to the .22 RF and not seen in center fire calibers (except mine that shoot well) with cast bullets:
Micrometer gauge the .22 RF bullet of a loaded round, the bullet diameter is larger than the case diameter.
The .22 RF bullet is only heeled because it wouldn't fit into the .22RF case if it wasn't heeled.
I use the Lee Blackout bullet at 1150 fps with H TiteGroup in the small capacity 7.62X39. It is not stellar for me but easily groups <1” at 50 yards. I do better in this caliber at the same velocity with the Lee 90 gr SWC 32 cal pistol bullet sized .3125” and tumble lubed, the little 90 gr SWC easily groups <1/2” at 50 yards and is a fine squirrel load for my single shot Remington Spartan rifle. Seating this SWC bullet effectively heels it in the 7.62X39 case and leaves the body of the bullet fully contacting the chamber throat of my rifle for a slip fit upon chambering. My seating depth equals 1 bullet diameter.
I recommend you try H TiteGroup instead of BlueDot in your .308 project. Hodgdon really brags that TiteGroup ignites well with small charges in large capacity cases. This has proven true for me. I expect the Lee 90 gr SWC sized to your throat diameter would work well.
Gary
Attached Files
I've done subsonic testing (971 fps with a 1.2 long, 430 gr bullet) with the 45/70 and had good results at 100 yards (.84, 4 in .48) but, I gave it up when I started testing at 200 yards with the same load. I don't remember the group size but, it was over 3” @ 200. Not to mention that at 1 oz a shot, it was reducing my good lead pretty fast.
It was a 20 twist barrel and I don't know if it was giving up it's stability or the ES was the problem but, I don't recall tipping being the issue, if it was, I didn't record it in my chrono book. BTW this testing was done in 1991. ES was 19 and SD was 6.9. You have to keep the ES as low as possible to expect to do any good in this area. If I where to do it again, I try to find a powder to limit the ES to 10.
On to the 22rf, in 1990, I chronograph Eley 10X and RWS R50. RWS ran 1108 with a ES of 22 and SD of 7.4, for the Eley, it was ES 18, SD 5.2.
ASSRA shoots 22rf at 200 yards sometimes and these are the records for that:
200 Yard, Benchrest 22RFKelly Match: Benchrest, 5 shots for group, reentry1.315”, 2011Schoyen Match: Benchrest, 10 shots for score, reentry245-6C, 2010 245-6C, 2013 Brockway Match: Benchrest, 10 shots for score, iron sights, reentry245-6C, 22 Benchrest Single Entry: Benchrest, 10 shots for score 247-7c.
A lot better than you would expect but, these are RECORDS and NOT the norm (also note that most are reentry) but, shows what can be done. The above 22 records are what the normal groups and scores are in CF.
Regarding lube grooves, in my 22rf breech seat testing, I have shot at least 1000 rounds w/o leading with non grooved bullets at up to 1300 fps, hand lube with both Alox and Darr lube.
The BO would be a good starting plateform in a bolt action rifle. This is a good site for info on low velocity loading:
Attached Files
This approach suggested by Joe and several times by Ken could lead to something worthwhile and even if it doesn't it would be interesting to see what could be done. I think it's a neglected area partly because most shooters seem to think that velocity increases always reduce wind drift and it does above about 1,500/1,600 fps but it is also reduced as velocity is reduced below that point so that is another possibility.
Joe makes a case for a heeled bullet and that approach obviously works for 22lr and should work for CF CBs as well but I think you could also get the same “breech seating” action as Gary suggests with the right neck tension and the right dimensions for chamber throat, case neck thickness, and bullet diameter. It would be nice to see work on both approaches.
Joe is right that to emulate the 22lr would take a teeny case. But I believe results could be gotten with a somewhat larger then teeny case and I suspect the BO case is small enough for 30 caliber. Mike Mohler was always a top competitor in production class with the 243 Winchester and a little powder rattling around inside -- he was also CBA National Champ in 2007 and holds several records. I get ES under 20 and SDs in the single digits with 4 to 5.5 grains of 700X or TiteGroup in a case that holds up to 29 grains of powder for some JB loads. John
Attached Files
Try this one:
Attached Files
Joe, I have zero on my bench right now but I will cast 50 for you, no charge, Just shipping $5. PM me and let me know how you would like them, as cast pure lead, as cast Lyman #2 alloy or either alloy cast and sized .310 0r .312” and tumble lubed 45:45:10.
That mold is currently available from Midway, in stock for $24.99 if you want your own: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/938614/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl309-230-5r-30-caliber-309-diameter-230-grain-300-aac-blackout-tumble-lube-5-ogive-radius
That is just fun for me and 50 I will give you. PM me of you would like 50. The #2 Alloy casts the nicest.
Gary
Attached Files
Try this one:
Attached Files
I did play with this idea a few months ago using the 30BR case. The loading principle seems pretty sound and is easily done. If I were to build a rifle to suit I'm thinking the 30 carbine case a good start. It could be shortened and the reamer could be run in deeper as the gifted experimenter saw fit. Is the head of the 30 car too small to work with a .223 bolt face?
Attached Files
The .30 Carbine is too small to work with a .223 boltface, however the .32 H&R Magnum and .32 S&W Long fit OK and in a ten-inch twist barrel with 3 degrees Basic throat taken directly from the .335” case mouth diameter, breech seating any good .30 cal. match bullet using a compressed casefull of RL7 and small rifle primer, you can get impressive results at 100 yards. Ellis Lea and I both did this back in the 1980s. Accuracy was not of match quality at 200 yards due to transonic buffeting, but at 100 yards you could clean the prone smallbore target and with a Saeco #315 have better wind bucking nproperties than Eley Tenex. For 200 yard capability use a 7.62x39 case with the Lapua chamber and a 12” twist or 14” twist barrel and 21-24grs. of RL7. The .300 Blackout would give similar performance, though at higher pressures which complicates matters.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
Attached Files
Another good cartridge for 30 cal, subsonic is the Win 32/20. I built a small thread HW for my wife to shoot in ASSRA matches. With a 182 gr BSed bullet, 10.0 gr of 296, in a 26” barrel, it gets 1400 fps in the 12 twist Douglas barrel.
I will do some subsonic testing with it this winter and if I can get some good results, that's what she'll shoot next year.
The 32/20 case is very fragile at in the 1400+ fps range with a 180+ gr bullet and only Rem case will take it very long but, in the 900 - 1000 fps range, it may/should get good case life.
The rim on the 32/20 can be turn to .223 rim size but, the case capacity will (IMO) be to small for even the Rem cases to take if shot fixed.
The 223 shortened to 1.3 would make a more versatile case if it had at least a .32 long neck.
Frank
Attached Files
i have been thinking about my ” super rook ” for a while, and since 6mm match barrels are readily available ( although in 14 twist ) , i plan to start with that caliber. i note that 22 hornet brass could be expanded to take a heeled 6mm casting.
then, being a near straight case, i could chamber with a boring bar or throating reamer ... to try different variations of chamber/throat. also, since 22 hornet brass is suspect ( not made by lapua ) if my fantasy comes true and i achieve 1 moa or less, i can easily turn out more predictable ... and thicker necked ... brass on my hobby lathe.
i see also that 38 spec/357/max. brass would work for a 0.375 heeled rook project.
my intent is to have a chamber neck od the same as the barrel groove diameter. then i can see if i need a groove sized bullet ... or groove plus a tad.
i am down to only a half dozen promised gun jobs so maybe next spring i will be out shooting thru bottle caps instead of milk jugs.
ken
Attached Files
I started my subsonic testing yesterday with promicing results. My wife did all the shooting in this test and we found that the 182 gr Ron Long spitzer is a little to long for a 12 twist at ~1000 fps. The group marked as good was a 1” 5 shot group.
I have at least 3 more molds in the 1 - 1.06 range to try for this application and lots more testing to do. The powder seems about right for this velocity but, they are limited in this burn range, I will also try Unique. Can anyone suggest any other ball powders in this burn rate? Frank
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