CAST BULLET ACCURACY - AFTER THE BEGINNING
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- Last Post 10 November 2014
"Reading about and practicing bench shooting". I need to constipate more on this subject.
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Joe,
WOW! And I was beginning to think that I was the radical for claiming that much of our time honored cast bullet lore was a waste of time.
I think it is important that you have defined the range of improvement for your two lists (1.5” – 2” to 1” – 1.5” 
. I assume that a person making similar lists for going from .7” – 1” to .5” - .7” might have a larger WILL list and a smaller WILL NOT list – but I doubt if we know that.
Even I BELIEVE that you have included some things on your WILL NOT list that may play a role in reducing group size from 1.5” – 2” to 1” – 1.5”. BUT and I think this is the important thing – I don’t have anything beyond “belief” but very casual test results on a few groups to challenge any item on your WILL NOT list. So until I do some testing I can’t say with anything stronger than “I believe” that some of your “will not” items improve accuracy – that makes for a very weak argument not even worthy of the term argument.
I hope others will come forward with test results, involving at least 5 5-shot groups (or 2 10-shot groups) for both with and without the procedure in question to help identify things on the “will not” list that should be moved to the “will” list.
John
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I like the wind flags being on the WILL NOT list. Wind flags will not decrease the size of a group shot in a no wind situation but WILL reduce the size of groups shot in match or field conditions. Ignoring wind flags is something the unwashed would do. I would not recommend wind flags to beginners until they master Joe's WILL list but once mastering those, wind flags will give higher scores and smaller groups.
The making a die to match the throat on the WILL NOT list shouldn't be there. John Ardito would turn over in his grave if he heard that bump dies don't aid in accuracy. I have one of John Ardito's bump dies and it is matched to the rifle's throat. It has produced groups slightly below 0.300". If the claim is made that Plain Base rifles don't have fitted bullets, the seating tool used to fit the bullet to the bore is in essence a bump die if one thinks about it.
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when i started casting in my wasted youth, my friends and i had access to about 60 rifles and 60 molds ... we went thru every item on joe's WONT HELP list for a couple years; total confusion ... but yep total fun !! not a rock left unrolled, not a cat that would come out in broad daylight !!
who cared if an 1886 in 45-70 or a gennywine peacemaker in 44-40 barely would hit a slop bucket at 75 yards ...
it wasn't until i decided to dedicate my soul to the art of coyote hunting that i could/would have appreciated that WILL HELP list.
not to restart an old thread, but maybe * accuracy * means ” good enough for what you need at the time ” ...
ken
oh, my lingering unfullfilled goal is to bag a coyote with my 375 magnum and cast ... and the coyotes were squaling right behind my house last night ... gonna re-read that WILL list again...
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These are the ones I disagree with on the “will not help".
Glass bedding the rifle action. Reaming the chamber throat. Re-crowning the barrel (if it's has burrs or off center) Using wind flags
Frank
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Joe, how provocative! I am unwilling to make a constructive comment.
I am just home from squirrel hunting this morning and nailed 2 black squirrels at 65+ yards with head shots and my cast loads. I am busy gloating on that.
Gary
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These are the ones I disagree with on the “will not help".
Glass bedding the rifle action. Reaming the chamber throat. Re-crowning the barrel (if it's has burrs or off center) Using wind flags
Frank
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Joe, how provocative! I am unwilling to make a constructive comment.
I am just home from squirrel hunting this morning and nailed 2 black squirrels at 65+ yards with head shots and my cast loads. I am busy gloating on that.
Gary
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I like the wind flags being on the WILL NOT list. Wind flags will not decrease the size of a group shot in a no wind situation but WILL reduce the size of groups shot in match or field conditions. Ignoring wind flags is something the unwashed would do. I would not recommend wind flags to beginners until they master Joe's WILL list but once mastering those, wind flags will give higher scores and smaller groups.
The making a die to match the throat on the WILL NOT list shouldn't be there. John Ardito would turn over in his grave if he heard that bump dies don't aid in accuracy. I have one of John Ardito's bump dies and it is matched to the rifle's throat. It has produced groups slightly below 0.300". If the claim is made that Plain Base rifles don't have fitted bullets, the seating tool used to fit the bullet to the bore is in essence a bump die if one thinks about it.
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Joe wrote: “Where does it or I say that the WILL NOT actions won't improve accuracy? I didn't think that this was that difficult to understand.”
Joe,
It doesn’t and it isn’t.
Ric is right I either read the sentence wrong or forgot your hedge “although accuracy may improve” by the time I got to the bottom of your lists. I was hoping for a stronger statement. I probably read too many of my own ideas into it. I apologize.
Although weaker than the list I would have liked, I am not complaining. It is your thread and I think your WILL NOT list can still serve as a welcome provocative challenge to shooters harboring beliefs that the procedures in that list shouldn’t be there.
If a serious shooter thinks some of the things on the list shouldn’t be there – or may even be a bit irritated because you are challenging procedures that they use and BELIEVE in, I hope they will take the challenge, do the testing, and prove you wrong. I plan to do just that for at least one item on the list.
If your list inspires, or goads, even a few shooters set up a test to prove that you are wrong about something on the list and publish their results in the Fouling Shot, or even post them on this forum, it will be an improvement on our knowledge of cast bullet shooting.
There is nothing wrong with folks writing in and saying I BELIEVE this or that item shouldn’t be on the “will not” list. But if that is all that happens we won’t have learned anything new.
John
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Joe,
They are reading that sentence in your original post incorrectly.
One thing I would add to the “will” list is well cast bullets, as I have seen many new casters / shooters try to shoot bullets with only half of a driving band filled out completely.
Ric
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Joe,
They are reading that sentence in your original post incorrectly.
One thing I would add to the “will” list is well cast bullets, as I have seen many new casters / shooters try to shoot bullets with only half of a driving band filled out completely.
Ric
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"Reading about and practicing bench shooting". I need to constipate more on this subject.
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Joe wrote: “Where does it or I say that the WILL NOT actions won't improve accuracy? I didn't think that this was that difficult to understand.”
Joe,
It doesn’t and it isn’t.
Ric is right I either read the sentence wrong or forgot your hedge “although accuracy may improve” by the time I got to the bottom of your lists. I was hoping for a stronger statement. I probably read too many of my own ideas into it. I apologize.
Although weaker than the list I would have liked, I am not complaining. It is your thread and I think your WILL NOT list can still serve as a welcome provocative challenge to shooters harboring beliefs that the procedures in that list shouldn’t be there.
If a serious shooter thinks some of the things on the list shouldn’t be there – or may even be a bit irritated because you are challenging procedures that they use and BELIEVE in, I hope they will take the challenge, do the testing, and prove you wrong. I plan to do just that for at least one item on the list.
If your list inspires, or goads, even a few shooters set up a test to prove that you are wrong about something on the list and publish their results in the Fouling Shot, or even post them on this forum, it will be an improvement on our knowledge of cast bullet shooting.
There is nothing wrong with folks writing in and saying I BELIEVE this or that item shouldn’t be on the “will not” list. But if that is all that happens we won’t have learned anything new.
John
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John Alexander wrote: Joe wrote: “Where does it or I say that the WILL NOT actions won't improve accuracy? I didn't think that this was that difficult to understand.”
Joe,
It doesn’t and it isn’t.
Ric is right I either read the sentence wrong or forgot your hedge “although accuracy may improve” by the time I got to the bottom of your lists. I was hoping for a stronger statement. I probably read too many of my own ideas into it. I apologize.
Although weaker than the list I would have liked, I am not complaining. It is your thread and I think your WILL NOT list can still serve as a welcome provocative challenge to shooters harboring beliefs that the procedures in that list shouldn’t be there.
If a serious shooter thinks some of the things on the list shouldn’t be there – or may even be a bit irritated because you are challenging procedures that they use and BELIEVE in, I hope they will take the challenge, do the testing, and prove you wrong. I plan to do just that for at least one item on the list.
If your list inspires, or goads, even a few shooters set up a test to prove that you are wrong about something on the list and publish their results in the Fouling Shot, or even post them on this forum, it will be an improvement on our knowledge of cast bullet shooting.
There is nothing wrong with folks writing in and saying I BELIEVE this or that item shouldn’t be on the “will not” list. But if that is all that happens we won’t have learned anything new.
John
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I went looking for articles on bench shooting. Here is one that seemed decent.
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- the accurate rifle 8 ... i have several shooting books, read many times ... time to pass them on ... i will post a list later including this one.
ken
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joeb33050 It seems to me that
If the shooter is trying to find bench rest accuracy
Then the REAL question is:
After what steps is it time for him to get a new gun or barrel?
When should he give up on the gun or barrel?
I agree that at some point that IS the question. But knowing when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em isn't an easy question to answer.
I think too many shooters don't give up on a rifle/barrel as soon as they should but instead keep looking for the magical combination (me included -- I have wasted years with lost causes.) Too many shooters delude themselves by believing more precise loading procedures and more laborious detail work will make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear (weigh bullets and powder, get a magnifying glass, and a concentric tester, clean and polish everything in sight, use only one case, etc.)
What would be a big help in knowing when to give up on a rifle/barrel would be a list like your “will not” list. It would cut down dramatically on the number of things tried in an attempt to answer THE question. The final list might be a bit shorter than yours but one that has stood the challenge of rigorous testing to show that the procedures on the list really are a waste of time.
It will take a lot of testing to convince skeptical but open-minded shooters that items on the list are indeed a waste of time. Of course, it will never be possible to convince the closed minded shooters who think they know all they need to know because it sounds logical or because “everybody knows you should do it", or because they have once run a little half vast test involving two groups or because they did some extra work on their bullets or cases and shot better in the next match.
It seem like shooters hoping to do well in competition or any shooter that wants to shoot as well as possible should be interested in participating in the testing to find which procedures deserve to be on the list and which don't. There I go again with foolish optimism about human nature.
John
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It doesn't take a lot of cast bullet testing if you narrow down the purpose of the rifle. I use the same load parameter for deer hunting rifles of any caliber: 1,000 foot pounds or more delivered at the maximum distance I expect to use the rifle. For Black Bear I use 1,200 foot pounds at maximum hunting distance. My personal hunting Maximim distance is 125-150 yards for Deer or Bear. Shots longer than that just don't present where I hunt in the high hardwood hills of the Southern Tier of Western New York.
I start testing with a bullet and charge that delivers that energy and continue only upward to 10% higher or stop if I run out of accuracy/ pressure safety. Rifles that don't make the accuracy I desire, 1” or less groups of 5 shots consistently at 50 yards aren't worth hunting with for me if they don't do that well and they get sold or traded.
Target rifles and squirrel rifles don't get the energy delivered specification but they get a smaller group size specification of 1 MOA at 100 yards with cast bullets.
Sometimes pretty rifles are hard to part with but I rarely try very hard if simple loading doesn't work as I don't want picky rifles that don't have broad sweet spots. and aren't easy to get shooting well.
I prefer single shot rifles as they don't need brass crimped and don't have magazines that limit LOA shorter than engaging the cast bullet to the chamber ball seat.
Gary
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A good CLEAR scope that will help me see that tiny .072 orange dot is a must. High magnification and fine cross hairs will help me pin point that tiny dot better than a target dot reticle will.
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