For the last trip to the range before visiting the frozen north, I loaded (223 Rem) 17 with Tula primers, 8/IMR4227 and 225646 AND, 15 with 20/IMR4198 CCI SR and Hornady 55 gr. VMAX. At 100 yards the cast bullets shot all over the paper, maybe into 4” or more. (This gun wants ~ 10 cb rounds fired after cleaning, before it settles down. Normally it shoots this load ~2"/5 shots/5 groups.)At the same range the jacketed bullets shot into (shameful) groups of 1.1", 1.05” and .6"; average of .917". The jacketed accuracy, while shameful, tells me that the gun/scope will shoot accurately. Based on my experience of two tries of 1.5 year attempts to get a 223 to shoot cast, and the lack of any shooters here other than J.A. and P.P. willing/able to share 22 cast accuracy results, I've concluded that cast bullet accuracy with a 22 cf is a rare and elusive bird. I can make about any 30 caliber gun shoot cast bullets accurately, I can't make 22 caliber cast bullets shoot accurately, and few others can. I'm not giving up completely, just bought a new set of cases, and I'm very interested in the J.A./NOE new mold, but I'm going to move on. I believe that it's time to recognize and advise others that accuracy with smaller-than-30 caliber cast bullets requires equipment acquisition/expenditure, time and luck inversely related to caliber. It ain't easy, it sometimes is impossible, and making 30 caliber cast bullets shoot accurately IS easy.
22 SHAMEFUL GROUPS AND CB ACCURACY
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- Last Post 03 January 2015
Joe, don't be so down on yourself, is'nt this game of cast bullet shooting about the
unknowns and the experimentation that makes it challenging and enjoyable/ if we had
all the answers, we would probably find some other interest to challenge our mind. jim
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Just like 30 calibers, 22's have to be throated to get the best accuracy out of them. The 222 case is also a much better one to work with. A heavier barreled, custom 222 chambered rifle with about a .060 freebore and a leade of less than 1.5 deg (per side) will get results. For the 223 in production class, you can still re-throat and get better results with a bore rider. Frank
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Just like 30 calibers, 22's have to be throated to get the best accuracy out of them. The 222 case is also a much better one to work with.
A heavier barreled, custom 222 chambered rifle with about a .060 freebore and a leade of less than 1.5 deg (per side) will get results.
For the 223 in production class, you can still re-throat and get better results with a bore rider.
Frank
Evidently I wasn't clear.I, and others, can buy a modern rifle, use standard tools and no wizard gunsmith/ing, and shoot cast bullets into <1.5” 5 shot 5 group 100 yard averages, pretty easily. I've demonstrated that here.Nobody who's responded here has said or shown that they/he/she/it can do the same with a 22 caliber cf rifle.
Virtually anything can be done with enough expenditure of time, money and gunsmithing. That ain't the point.
It is hard, expensive and difficult to impossible to get a .22 cf cb rifle to shoot as well as a similar .30 cf cb rifle.
And, if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a tea cart.
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Sorry Joe, I thought most people would want excellent, reliable accuracy.
A throating reamer can do wonders. They cost around $60 (PTG). $10 - $40 less than most molds. Seems like a good deal to me.
Frank
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My main interest in shooting cast bullets has always been seeing how well I can get them to shoot in unaltered factory rifles including factory throats. There is nothing virtuous about those limits it's just what I like to work on. Originally it was because I couldn't afford the gunsmithing and special equipment but now that I can, I still like the challenge of factory rifles.
Joe is right there are a lot more good bullet designs and more dies, equipment, and information for the thirty caliber that the 22. The worst thing about most 22s is the 14” twists that limits CB to the 30 caliber equivalent of 80 grain thirty caliber bullets which also aren't known for accuracy. With 9 and even 8” twists in some 223s that disadvantage can be avoided. Out of the box 223s with fast twists can be made to average at least a little better than 1MOA for five shot groups. I think it is a rare stock factory 30 caliber that can do any better even with the excellent bullet designs available for that caliber. But to make a 22 shoot you have to have a decent bullet design that fits and I have never been able to get any of the usual suspects by Lyman, RCBS, Saeco, made for 14” twists to average better than 1.5MOA and then only when the planets are aligned. They can provide a good squirrel load to fifty yards but in my opinion they are a waste of time for competition. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s NEI offered the 72 grain round nose that I designed that would win matches but at that time only a few factory rifles had a twist fast enough to stabilize it. NOE is offering a near clone of that design the 225 70 grain. I recently bought a three cavity mold for that bullet and have found that it shoots as well as my old NEI design. I recommend it for anyone wanting to try CBs in a 22 with a twist fast enough. I will report my initial results in Joe's other thread where he asked for averages for 22 CBs. John
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Sorry Joe, I thought most people would want excellent, reliable accuracy.
A throating reamer can do wonders. They cost around $60 (PTG). $10 - $40 less than most molds. Seems like a good deal to me.
Frank Frank;I kinda know what a throating reamer is, sorta. Have no idea how to use one, have no lathe or even a drill press, can't operate either-well, maybe a drill press a little. Is it reasonable for someone like me to buy a reamer and have at it? I think an article for TFS about throating and reamers would be helpful. What to order in a reamer, from who, how it's used. Why don't you write this article, and add pictures if possible. In case someone like me CAN'T reasonably do home reaming, who CAN/WILL do the work?In the case of Savage 110 series rifles, the barrels R&R easily and can be shipped easily. Can the barrel alone be throat reamed or does the whole gun have to go to the doer?Do you do this work, and if so, how much does it cost?I'm sure that there are other questions, I don't know enough to ask them.joe b.
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My main interest in shooting cast bullets has always been seeing how well I can get them to shoot in unaltered factory rifles including factory throats. There is nothing virtuous about those limits it's just what I like to work on. Originally it was because I couldn't afford the gunsmithing and special equipment but now that I can, I still like the challenge of factory rifles.
Joe is right there are a lot more good bullet designs and more dies, equipment, and information for the thirty caliber that the 22. The worst thing about most 22s is the 14” twists that limits CB to the 30 caliber equivalent of 80 grain thirty caliber bullets which also aren't known for accuracy. With 9 and even 8” twists in some 223s that disadvantage can be avoided.
Out of the box 223s with fast twists can be made to average at least a little better than 1MOA for five shot groups.
John; If this means with cast bullets, I'll tell you that after lotsa molds/barrels/shots I can't average anything like 1MOA for 5 shot groups. And, if I work at it, i CAN average ~ 1” for 5 groups 5 shots 100 yards with cast bullets.
This is my point, 22 cf cast bullets aren't accurate, or AS accurate as 30 cal. Note the absence of reports. I think it's time to face the truth.
I think it is a rare stock factory 30 caliber that can do any better even with the excellent bullet designs available for that caliber. But to make a 22 shoot you have to have a decent bullet design that fits and I have never been able to get any of the usual suspects by Lyman, RCBS, Saeco, made for 14” twists to average better than 1.5MOA and then only when the planets are aligned. They can provide a good squirrel load to fifty yards but in my opinion they are a waste of time for competition.
Throughout the 1980s and 1990s NEI offered the 72 grain round nose that I designed that would win matches but at that time only a few factory rifles had a twist fast enough to stabilize it. NOE is offering a near clone of that design the 225 70 grain. I recently bought a three cavity mold for that bullet and have found that it shoots as well as my old NEI design. I recommend it for anyone wanting to try CBs in a 22 with a twist fast enough. I will report my initial results in Joe's other thread where he asked for averages for 22 CBs.
John
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I wrote:
"Out of the box 223s with fast twists can be made to average at least a little better than 1MOA for five shot groups.”
Joe wrote:
John; If this means with cast bullets, I'll tell you that after lotsa molds/barrels/shots I can't average anything like 1MOA for 5 shot groups. And, if I work at it, i CAN average ~ 1” for 5 groups 5 shots 100 yards with cast bullets. ”
“This is my point, 22 cf cast bullets aren't accurate, or AS accurate as 30 cal. Note the absence of reports. I think it's time to face the truth. ”
Joe, I am all for facing the truth. Getting to it is the problem. I agree that with the usual 14” twist or with bullets from almost all the commercial molds available you are right. I have to work hard to stay under 2” for the AVERAGE OF five shot groups. Which isn't too impressive from a bore size that will usually group under an inch with most rifles on the market and good jacketed bullets.
Yes, I did mean with cast bullets. In the last thirty years I have owned only six stock factory 223 rifles with twists of 10.7 inches or tighter (a Ruger, 4 Savages and a Tikka). They would all average under an inch for 5-shot groups with good JBs I couldn't make any of them shoot an honest average under 1.5” with CBs from molds by the major mold makers. I contend that wasn't because there is something magically bad about .22 inches as opposed to .30 or .32 inches but because the the bullet designs were poor.
After being frustrated with the Ruger, the first of the six, I designed a bullet somewhat similar to a 311299 only shorter and in .22 and paid Walt Melander of NEI to make a cherry. The rifle immediately started shooting this 71 grain bullet well. ALL SIX of the fast twist 223 that I have owned would shoot averages of 1MOA for 5 shot groups with bullets out of either my NEI mold or one of my Mos molds, a design somewhat similar to the RCBS 308 200 SIL only more pointed and smaller.
So I agree with you that it is hard to shoot the 22 bore well in factory rifles with the usual cast bullet designs but that is because of the designs available not because of the size.
John
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Joe, I have results of gas check loads in a .223 from 2009 to 2013,not a lot as most of my time is spent shooting jacketed ammunition in F/class and Match Rifle competitions.The rifle is a Sako L461 and has been re barrelled with a 24” heavy barrel,the chamber as far as I know is pretty standard,certainly not a long throat.The scope is a 6-24 Nikko Sterling,just a basic scope. The only projectiles I used were 55 grain RCBS,Hornady gas checks,Lee Liquid Alox lubricant.There is nothing special about the alloy,mostly wheel weights from 15 to 20 years ago and some tin.I do drop the bullets from the mould into a bucket of water.Sized through a Lee push through sizer,.225". So far I have not been fussy with cases,have used PMC,Winchester,Lapuar,and perhaps some others,no special preference .Primers are usually CCI 450 or CCI 400. I can't give neat 5 shot results as normally I try and fire10 or more and odd numbers is usually because that is all I have left.
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Starting with AS-30N (Clays)6.5 grains.13 shots,2.5” with11 shots in 1.4". 12 shots,1.25” with 10 in just under the 1".9 shots,1.7” with 8 in 1.375". 2205 (H4227). 12.7 grains. 15 shots fired after H4350 powder loads and not cleaned.15 shots 2.75"with 13 in 1.75"and 10 in 1.4". 13 grains 2205, 2.6” for 7 shots and 6 in 1.6". Then 12.8 grains 2205,8 shots,2.2” and 7 in 1.4" 2206 powder,faster than H4895,say 3031. 15.7 grains. 1.4” for 5 shots. 18 grains, 1.9” for a 20 shot group having 18 shots in 1.5" Finally 2209 powder (H4350) 23 grains, 2.13” for 12 shots and 10 of them in 1.7" Hope you can understand this. I have a Ruger .223,26” barrel 1-8 twist but haven't done enough with it yet.All results were shot at 100 yards,I am not a bench rest shooter and had no wind flags. I am sure better results could be achieved with more effort.The bullets were only average as cast,not weighed at all,apart from a few to get a rough idea of weight,around 56 grains loaded.Hope this helps. Mike H
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<url=/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander wrote: After being frustrated with the Ruger, the first of the six, I designed a bullet somewhat similar to a 311299 only shorter and in .22 and paid Walt Melander of NEI to make a cherry. The rifle immediately started shooting this 71 grain bullet well. ALL SIX of the fast twist 223 that I have owned would shoot averages of 1MOA for 5 shot groups with bullets out of either my NEI mold or one of my Mos molds, a design somewhat similar to the RCBS 308 200 SIL only more pointed and smaller. John, would this be the one? <url=http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html>http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
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That looks like the one I designed and is the same weight. The DD indicated that it has a couple of small bands slightly larger than the nose near the front of the nose but I don't see them in the drawing. They are just an attempt to correct a too small nose. I know they are not now cut by the exact same cherry since Walt Melander reshaped that one with slight smaller dimensions that I could never get to shoot well. However, that was thirty years ago and i have no idea what diameters would drop from a currently manufactured NEI mold of that design. But if driving bands are big enough and the nose diameter are right for your rifle and the twist is 10” or tighter that general design will shoot very well. When shooting it I could beat almost all the 30 caliber shooters almost all the time at 100 yards. 200 yards -- not so much unless shot by a better wind reader than I am.
The NOE 22570Gr RN is very similar and I reported my initial tests of that bullet in a recent Fouling Shot. I'm sure it will shoot as well if dimensioned to fit your rifle.
John
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I need to get me a factory rifle with faster twist for 200 yard shooting. The 1/12 twist is not going to work @200 yards with lighter weight bullets...UNLESS I can develop a higher velocity (2300-2700fps)load using lighter weight 60 grain bullets? Has this ever been done successfully for 200 yard shooting?
I really like casting and shooting the smaller the 22 cal bullets. Less recoil, lower cost and more challenging.
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I'm in the same boat. But, I'm thinking if I'm going to invest in a faster twist .22 for the sole purpose of small bore cb competition here maybe I'll look at some 6mm types. The 6x47 has caught my eye, and the TC line. I like a good quest, such as giving Alexander a run for his money! I'm not even close so far. If you (ou812) want to try some NOE clone MX 60 grainers I'll send you some. There was a time when the MX line was the 'in' thing.
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If you (ou812) want to try some NOE clone MX 60 grainers I'll send you some. There was a time when the MX line was the 'in' thing.
Sure! That offer is better than snuff and isn't half as dusty.
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We are getting several people interested in shooting cast bullets in 22 center fires so I thought that maybe at our monthly club matches to have a 22 center fire only course of fire something similar to what the 25 cal guys do at the Nationals. So far the idea is well liked and I think that all three of us will do it.
RB
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For faster velocity in 1/12 twist Remington barrel I have had good results with fatter lintoype bullets (.2210 bore ride section) size nose first and hand dipped in thinned moly/alox liquid. The slower n133 powder and Wolf small rifle primers seems to work good.
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We are getting several people interested in shooting cast bullets in 22 center fires so I thought that maybe at our monthly club matches to have a 22 center fire only course of fire something similar to what the 25 cal guys do at the Nationals. So far the idea is well liked and I think that all three of us will do it.
RB
RB, That is good news. You might want to encourage your like minded friends to sigh up for the Little Bore postal match. If I can help with small batches of bullets let me know. I have both the NOE 22570 RN and 22780 SP if you have twists fast enough.
Be sure to let us know how it goes.
John
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I wonder how well the 22 Bator would do. <url=https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000622BATOR/point22_Caliber_55_Grain_Double_Cavity_Special_Order_Mold_C225-55-RF>https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000622BATOR/point22_Caliber_55_Grain_Double_Cavity_Special_Order_Mold_C225-55-RF
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Thanks for the offer John but I already have both of those molds the nose on the 22570 RN is too small for any of my rifles it shoots OK but not good enough for serious competition. I recently ordered the 22780 SP but I just haven't done much shooting with it. The only rifle that I have with a fast enough twist is a full custom 223 with a 8 inch twist barrel that I would have to shoot in the Heavy Bench Class so that's out! The other guys have both molds too I think but are wanting to shoot Hunter class which I agree with DANG I may have to buy another rifle I sure do hate that!
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Yeah, being forced to buy another rifle is a bummer. Cast bullet shooting is a tough dirty job but somebody has to do it.
I sometime hope to make a dent (small 22 caliber dent) in the hegemony of the 30 caliber shooters in heavy class. But you are right the lighter weight classes are where the 22's advantage of being easier to shoot is strongest.
You might want to beagle that 22570 RN mold a bit and see what happens.
John
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