load and accuracy data for marlin 94 in .357

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  • Last Post 17 October 2009
mike morrison posted this 16 May 2007

a year ago i got to shoot sillouet (sp) levergun match for the first time. kinda liked it. bought a 180 gr mould on a group buy  and have been loading and shooting the gun for some time. after many loads the best ten shot group i can get is 1.750” at 50 yds. is this acceptable? i felt like i should get one ragged hole at 50 yds. the gun was shot from a bench it has a tang sight added and the trigger pull is 3-4 lbs. i have tried many powders and loads from 1000fps to 1550fps. my thought was (is) heavy boolet at any speed should take a ram at 100yds. so i have been looking for the most accurate load and judging by group size. by the way the gun is a marlin cowboy with a 24 in bbl. in .357.

i would appreciate any pet load data.

thanks mike;}

 

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mike morrison posted this 17 October 2009

excess650 this is good info. i have loading manuels i bought in 1960. and yes a lot of charges have been lowered. i will work on the load with the 180 gr bullets hopefully my results will be good. thanks again for your info mike

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excess650 posted this 16 October 2009

Even 20 years ago H110 was supposed to be a slightly different lot of 296....regardless, my loads are with H110 as it gave better accuracy, and I'm using Federal 205s (small rifle magnum primer with thicker cups for 17Rem and such).

Winchester always specified a very high loading density for WW296, but I don't recall Hogdon making the same for H110.  I find that odd.

My Browning Lowall gets similar loads with the RCBS 35-200 which weighs in at 215gr from my mix (quenched yields 15bhn).  These didn't show best accuracy until the loads got pretty warm, and the bullet was nearly on, or on the powder.  The cases and primers aren't showing any issues, but the recoil is noticeable with the narrow crescent buttplate.  At 1-1/2” at 100 yards for 5 shots with a peep sight, its a great load, but uncomfortable to shoot.

Regarding the current loading manuals, they are significantly revised from what was published 20 years ago.  Loads that were the starting loads then are now maximums for some calibers.  Pressure data for the 357 may have been downgraded by some 10K cup in that time.

Years back when Sierra introduced the 300gr for the 44mag, I bought a box and loaded them in my Redhawk.  I “guessed” at where I thought I should be and worked up.  It shot accurately, and extracted all 6 empties without sticking.  Cases didn't seem stressed, and the primers didn't look bad at all.  Sometime later I called Sierra and asked their techs what their recommended loading data was for that bullet, 44mag, WW296.  Their response was a maximum load that was below my starting load.  My “working load” chrono'd 1320fps from the 7-1/2” barrel.

That same Redhawk was my test mule for a heavy bullet load in attempt to emulate the .475 Linebaugh.  I had considered having a Redhawk converted, but wanted to experience the recoil prior to dropping all of the $$ for the conversion plus dies, mould(s), etc.  Veral Smith cut a 44-350LFN with the crimp groove for cylinder length.  These weighed in at 370gr from my mix with GC, and were loaded over increasing charges of 296 checking for normal pressure signs like sticky extraction, flattened primers, etc.  I stopped when the bullet was on the powder, and the 370gr cast chrono'd nearly as fast as the 300gr jacketed Sierra.  Recoil was beyond brutal, so the conversion idea was scrapped.  With the heavy bullet and heavy charge of 296, muzzle flash was minimal!

I DID have a Marlin 1894 44mag that didn't like the 24gr 296/240gr loads published at that time(circa 1980).  It would kick the lever loose, and accuracy was poor.  At 22gr, it shot cloverleafs at 60 yards.

The point is, your firearms have different barrels, chambers, throats than do what was used in ballistic testing by the powder manufacturers.  Your results WILL vary.

 

 

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mike morrison posted this 16 October 2009

confusion, h-110, 296. since hodgdon has taken over the distribution or whatever of winchester i read somewhere (recent gun rag) that h-110 and 296 were the same. are they? or are they not? my marlin craters the primer also. and i am using the federal mag primers. i backed off the load because of what i was able to find in the loading manuels. better safe than sorry. thanks for the heads up on the load. i will work on that. mike

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excess650 posted this 16 October 2009

mike morrison wrote:  i loaded up some more and loaded some with the 180gr and 13.5 296. hope to take these to the range soon. 166 miles one way to where i can shoot that far. guess i just gota say this. these loads are ok in my gun. you are on your own if ya try them. this gun has been a real stinker. maybe it will turn out to do a good job. mike

I suspect that your 13.5/296 may be too light for best accuracy.  My own 185gr (Saeco 354? sized .360” with LBT Blue 15bhn)wear gas checks and shoot best over H110 in excess of 15gr.  I'll go further and specify Starline brass, Federal 205 primers and 16-17gr H110.  5 shot groups inside 2” at 100 yards with receiver sight.  These work in both of my 1894C(s) and Browning Lowall with similar accuracy.  REMEMBER, start lower and work up!!!*  My Marlins crater primers somewhat, but appear to be a function of sloppy firing pin/hole rather than pressure.

I've shot 296 as well, but H110 has yielded better accuracy.

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mike morrison posted this 16 October 2009

recently i remembered that i had a mould i had not used in a while. bought the mould in the 1960's. it is a lyman 358* it is listed as 155gr. it is a gas check semiwadcutter. sorry i can't remember the exact number now. anyway i cast some bullets and water dropped them. sized .359 and loaded with 15.5 gr 296 in a 357 case. took this to the range last weekend and shot it from 50m to 300m. it will get the chicken off the 200m rail with no effort. all tgts closer were no problem. never could hit the pig at 300. i was over under to the side etc. wind was a big factor but maybe this is too much range for this bullet. i shot 160 rounds and cleande the gun with no lead in the bbl. i loaded up some more and loaded some with the 180gr and 13.5 296. hope to take these to the range soon. 166 miles one way to where i can shoot that far. guess i just gota say this. these loads are ok in my gun. you are on your own if ya try them. this gun has been a real stinker. maybe it will turn out to do a good job. mike

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tturner53 posted this 16 October 2009

Shot my Marlin 1894C today, closing in on a couple good PB loads. With a 6X scope(Lever Gun Match rules) the Lyman 358429 as cast (.362) with LLA went into 3.5” at 100 yds, best of four groups. I used 11.8 gr. of AA#9 over a Winchester small pistol primer, I'm out of small pistol magnum primers. The primers flattened out just a little, but no other signs of pressure issues. I seat 'em out to touch the rifling so they have to be single loaded, too long for magazine use. Another good load in MY Marlin was the Lee 358-140-SWC, as cast, .361", with LLA. Used same powder charge and primer, best group was 3.4". Also loaded long, have to single load. Unfortunately there were a few #@*&^%#$ fliers that will I'm sure keep me out of the $ again!!

  I also broke out an old friend, my ratty Winchester 94 30-30. Lot of good memories with that gun hunting with my son when he was a lad. I have a Williams FP on her, otherwise stock. The best cast load so far is the Saeco #315 as cast(ww+tin) with LLA and no gas check, using 5.5gr. new Bullseye and a CCI LR primer again loaded long to touch the rifling, single load only. You'll likely think I'm full of it but the top group of four went 2 3/4” for five shots and averaged under 4". I should have used that load for record but went with another which didn't do nearly as well. Never said I was smart. All in all a very enjoyable day, even picked up a roll of thin sheet lead for .25 a pound on my way to the range. tt    EDIT; The 2 3/4” group with Bullseye was all vertical dispersion, almost a straight line with maybe a half inch horizontal dispersion. This has been making me think, considering the iron sights, this may be a heck of a load in my gun,

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Idaho Bart posted this 20 August 2009

Thanks a lot Mr. Harris, I'll give him a call

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Ed Harris posted this 18 August 2009

Idaho Bart wrote: Ed do you know of anybody in my area, eastern Idaho, that has a throat reamer and will do the job?

John Taylor Machine 14119 Military Rd E., Puyallup, WA 98374

Shop 253-777-7793

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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excess650 posted this 18 August 2009

My favorite load for the 357mag carbine isn't in a book.  I started with Starline cases, F205 primers, Saeco #354(?) about 185gr with gc 15bhn sized .360" over H110.  The newer Speer book shows considerably lower powder charges than the old, so start at 15gr and work up .5gr until you see what you do or don't like.  This load has worked in both of my microgroove Marlins and a Browning Low Wall.  The Marlin with receiver sight topped out can knock over 300m high power silhouette pigs on demand.  The Browning's tang sight will allow you to shoot the 385m turkeys consistently.  My 1982 vintage 1894c shot these into sub 2” 5 shot groups at 100 yards, and the Browning even tighter(24” barrel and longer sight radius).

I've since found this load out on the 'net somewhere, and they claim to have chrono'd it at 1700fps+.

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Idaho Bart posted this 16 August 2009

Ed do you know of anybody in my area, eastern Idaho, that has a throat reamer and will do the job?

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CB posted this 20 December 2007

Mike,

 

It's a Lyman mold, I think it's a 358627 mold. Listed as a 214gr GC SWC.

 

Jerry

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454PB posted this 20 December 2007

I've recently been playing with a Marlin 94 microgroove carbine that I inherited from my Dad. I ran some Lyman 358156 gas checked cast in WW alloy and sized .358 in front of 9.5 grs. of Bluedot. These went into consistent 10 shot 3 1/2” groups at 100 yards, and was chronographed at 1500 fps. I think that is satisfactory out of a short barrel, but plan to try for improvement when weather permits.

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mike morrison posted this 19 December 2007

jerry,

wheredidya get your boolet.

mike

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CB posted this 16 December 2007

I use a 215 gr bullet for my carbine in 357 magnum. The speed is a little low and the impact is great.

Jerry

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mike morrison posted this 16 December 2007

FAsmus,

thanks for the info. i will give it a try. only difference is my gun is a cowboy model. with ballard rifling. i will give the 700x load a try and maybe not sizing the case also will try the unsized boolet. at this time i havefound the 38 case with the 180gr boolet sized .359 and 13.2 gr imr4198 with soft check to give me the best accuracy.

thanks again

mike

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FAsmus posted this 15 December 2007

Mike;

 

I have another M94 Microgroove Marlin in 357; it is probably just a few production numbers from yours.

I shoot this carbine with NEI 150-357-PB over 6 to 6.5 grains 700X. Chrongraphed velocities are 1400 ft/sec or better. Accuracy is on a par with your findings of 5x1.500 at 50 yards.

The trick I have found to help out both with accuracy and with stream-lining loading procedures is to eliminate bullet sizing. I shoot as-cast which means I shoot the bullets at 0.362 diameter.

I use this technique because I have found that Microgroove barrels like their bullets oversize and, not only that, when seating these oversize bullet my particular carbine's chamber accepts the cartridges thus loaded without requiring the cases to be sized at all either; all I have to do is bell the case at the same time as I de-prime, prime and load the unsized bullets into unsized cases.

The savings in time and effort is considrable and accuracy continues beautiful!

I have well over 2000 rounds through this carbine of mine so far - it is a delight to own and shoot.

Good day,

Forrest

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hal3855 posted this 06 September 2007

The 200 M Rams at Raton are set at topple point . They can only be set that way. This was done per Pistol rules. Any hot 357 will knock them down.  The 3 Lever Action Ranges in Pa  that i have shot at, set them full foot to the rear of the stand.  I have loaded way over listed charges of H-110 behind 180's and lose about 30-40% of hit 200M Rams. It doesn't matter what part of the body they are hit on. Hal

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Ed Harris posted this 22 August 2007

With fire lapping you have no control over what the resulting dimensions will be. The reamer is commercially available from JGS referencing the print. Clymer has something similar, or in a pinch you could use an ordinary 2 degree x .358” rifle throater which would be less expensive. Check Brownells for the rifle throater.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Idaho Bart posted this 21 August 2007

Would fire lapping do the same thing?  Maybe 20 round or so well covered with abrasive.  If not is that troating reamer commercially available?

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Ed Harris posted this 26 July 2007

Me thinks that 18 of #2400 is still too hot.

Current powder is alot faster than Ackley and Keith used, anything over about 15 grs. with a jacketed 158 and you are on your own nickel. Speer #13 tops off at 14.8 if I remember correctly.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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