John:
To each his own. I didn't mean to imply that a correctly sized M die wouldn't do the job just that I think the collet dies does it better and faster if coupled with the VLD reamer. With conventional dies and the M die the cases will wear out several time faster from workhardening, but cases are relatively cheap.
Wearing out cases has never been a problem with either hunting ammo or target when loading with conventional dies. One of my prime prairie dog shooters was a Sako Vixen .222 varmint. The throat is pretty much shot out now so it has had a fair amount of reloads through it. All of these rounds were loaded with conventional dies. And I started shooting the military CBA matches some yrs. ago with 200 NM .308 cases. These cases have been reloaded many many times since then with conventional dies. And, I am on my third brick of primers this year alone. Most were used in the old Mauser 7.62mm match rifle. But in all fairness, for the last couple of yrs., I have been annealing the .308 cases. Never the less, I have never lost a case because it was worn out.
I have never had excessive runout when using the collet die and runout isn't an issue with the way I and many other load with only a short length of bullet in the neck. If used right the collet die will size case necks as uniformly as conventional sizing dies.
Well, first of all, what do you mean by excessive run out? Numbers? How much is excessive? I only accept things if I can prove to myself that they work for me, irregardless of what many others are doing.
My experience with the Lee collet die is that it will not continuously size necks as uniformly concentric as a full length sizer die. This is if the case has been drawn straight to begin with. With Hornady match cases, the majority will be 0 -.0015". When using the Lee collet die, the majority of cases will run .002"-.004+". And that is with the Lee set up according to the instructions. Sure, there will be some cases at 0 or a little more with the Lee but no where near the number as when FL sizing.
If you are seeing deep creases in your case necks from the collet die, even with annealed cases, either you are doing something wrong or the die is defective and should be sent back
So,what am I doing wrong? I have more that one Lee Collet die and they all do the same thing when set up according to Lee's instructions. Have you annealed cases and then resized them with the collet die.? As far as being defective, maybe. but when I have other tools available that will do a better job, I see no sense in spending more by sending them back and forth.
I must add that all cases are sized before annealing. I learned to do this the hard way some time ago. The creases that I am referring to appear several times after the first firing following annealing. Don't know that they hurt much except to leave possible stress “points” around the neck.
The collet die doesn't full length resize so naturally it won't work for rifles with springy actions (some lever actions and some others)with full pressure loads which leave the ejected brass too big to fit back in. For low pressure loads that don't need FL sizing the collet die works fine for the lever actions I have tried it in.
These rifles are bolt actions. Not levers which are a whole nother animal when it comes to reloading and sizing.
What i like best about the collet die is that it eliminates case lubing and unlubing as well as annealing with its drawbacks and since it strains the brass only a fraction of conventional dies and the M die, the cases last many times longer. I guess I am a little lazy
How much longer do they last with the collet die?
I see no drawbacks by annealing, only benefits. Yes, it adds an extra step in the process but a small price to pay for the quest toward the ultimate one hole group. And I see no evidence that the M-die excessively strains brass. What it does do is expand the neck of the case slightly and uniformly as well as slightly bell the case mouth, if you want, for ease of entry of the cast bullet.
Another downside to the collet and st. neck sizer dies is that neither correct for shoulder expansion. This occurs even with low pressure cast loads each time the case is fired. If this is not set back a specific amount each time the case is sized,it will be under more and more tension every time the case is chambered and fired. And is easily not noticed with the strong camming action of a bolt rifle. Just take the firing pin and spring out of the bolt and then chamber a fired case sometime. Another accuracy detail, consistant headspace.
The whole point of my reply is to say that my goal is to place that bullet in perfect concentricity with the centerline of the bore. And, in my experience, the full length sizing die along with the Lyman M-die are much more effective than the Lee collet in trying to accomplish this. A fact that I have proven to myself.
RD
I need to add that the above results also were consistant with some LC-"69” GI issue once fired 30-06 ball brass that I worked over and reformed to .308. To my surprise.