Winchester 748 Powder And 30-30 Reloads

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mashburn posted this 17 October 2022

 Good morning to all,

Has anyone out there loaded any 30-30 cartridges with Win 748 Powder? I was loading up some ammo, for my Star rolling block carbine in 30-30, using mostly cast lead along with a few jacketed rounds. I decided to try WW 748 powder, mainly because I have 16 pounds of it. Also, years ago, I loaded some .308 rounds with 748 and they turned out to be the most accurate cartridges that I ever fired in that particular rifle, which was a Win. model 88 carbine. The cast bullets are a 176- gr. gas checked and powder coated round nose and a 180 -grain gas checked flat nose that is also powder coated. The jacketed bullets are 170 grain Sierra #2110 30-30 bullets. I have ever powder that you could use for this cartridge but wanted to try it after the success with the .308 rounds. I loaded them yesterday and hope to try them out in a couple of days.

Is there anyone who has used this powder in a 30-30?

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Ed Harris posted this 17 October 2022

IIRC 780 is a really slow burner intended for high intensity belted magnums like the 7mm Rem Mag.  I suppose you could stuff all you can get into a .30-30 case with a heavy bullet and see if it burns without leaving alot of unburned powder behind, but 748 is a much better powder for full charge loads in the .30-30 and there is published data for it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Eutectic posted this 18 October 2022

780 is in the same speed class as 4831 and harder to ignite as it has a heavy deterrent coating. Slow ball powders do not respond well in low pressure loads. Ed is correct, you might get it to work with a case-full, but my experience is you get low and variable velocity and dirty burning. Col. E.H. Harrison recommended a booster of 2 grains of fast pistol powder under a case full of the slow powder for cast bullet loads. I found this worked with 4831 and H-870, they did burn cleaner and velocity SD was better, but there was no advantage over a medium burner like 4895. In the 30-30 4895 and 3031 can give full velocity with jacketed and also loaded down for good cast loads.

I understand the temptation to use cheap surplus powder or one you have plenty of. Since you say you have other powders, why not use one with published data? 

Steve

 

 

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mashburn posted this 19 October 2022

Hello Eutectiic,

First, there is published loading data for 748 in 30-30 cartridges Second, I have been using 748 powder in various cartridges with success. I load .223 with 748 and 22-250 with 760. This is one of the most accurate powders I have used and flows very well in a powder measure, the biggest problem is it is temperature sensitive.I worked up loads for a .308 and come up with the most accurate load I ever discovered. 

Third, I am loading both jacketed and cast with this powder. My cast bullets are not plain base,they are gas checked powder coated bullets, and I might add they are properly powder coated bullets. I use jacketed loads for these bullets. I start at the bottom of the listed jacketed loads and work my way up. I have shot this type of bullets in one of my .17 caliber rifles and fired 5 shot groups under 1/2 inch at 100 yd with velocities over 3,000 fps., Not using 748 of course..

Fourth, I have plenty of different powders, I was smart enough to stock up before the shortage ever started. I will probably never continue this load.. It is an EXPERIMENT. I usually shoot Rx7 lor Rx11.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 19 October 2022

Hello Ed, 

I made a big typographical error and just now caught it. HOW I TYPED 780 INSTEAD OF WW748, I DON'T KNOW. VERY VERY SORRY. AND THE SAME APOLOGY TO YOU EUTECTICT.

MASHBURN

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 19 October 2022

Hello Eutectiic,

Please accept my apologies. How I made such a typing error, I don't know, I just caught it right after I replied to you. I made a big typographical error. I am using WW 748 instead of 780. I don't know how I made such a mistake in typing, very sorry.

Sorry

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Wilderness posted this 19 October 2022

David - I have found 748 to be my most accurate powder in both .30-30 and .308, in both cases with Sierra bullets. Hornady #3 and Lyman #46 list some .30-30 loads quite a bit heavier than the Winchester data. My five shot groups with 748 were about 2/3 the size of groups with tubular powders - 1" at 50 m with peep sights and each side of 1" at 100 m with scope, in a Savage 99. This is with Sierra bullets 150 and 170 gn. Others do not shoot as well in this rifle.

More recently, my 748 loads with Sierra 170s are slightly ahead of the LeverEvolution loads on grouping (1.6" vs 2.1") but 100 fps slower. And no, I can't slow down the LVR without losing consistency.

For cast bullets I use a hard 175gn HP (reformed #321297HP .3125") which gives higher pressure and velocity than #311041. From recent records, 33 gns 748 gave 2200 fps and groups of 3.3" and 1.7" at 100 m. Going up, 34 gns gave 2240 and 2.1", with some colour at the muzzle.

Same bullet with LeverEvolution, 32 gns (11 groups) averaged 2190 and 2.8"; 33 gns (3 groups) 2273 and 3.8"; 34 gns got to 2300 fps with 3.4" and 3.7" groups, all with no leading.

I have also used Varget/2208 with cast with complete satisfaction, though leading sets in at a lower velocity than for 748 or LVR.

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Eutectic posted this 19 October 2022

David,

Apology accepted. I have made my share of blunders; I know how you feel.

Steve 

 

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Ed Harris posted this 21 October 2022

Not a problem. I've had others ask about 780 also. But when I was shooting .30-30 in CBA competition 748 and RL7 were the two powders of choice.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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buttstock posted this 4 weeks ago

32 grains W-748 has produced the best accuracy from my Marlin 336A (24" bbl, micro-groove, 1976 mfg date) 30-30 with a Speer 170 grain jacketed flat point bullet. I have not shot cast bullets in it...yet.   With the 32/W748 170 grain Speer load I get about 1.25 " groups at 100 yards.

My brother had similar results with his Marlin 336A 30-30 (our dad gave us each Marlin 336a rifles when we were 16 years old way back when..so same vintage rifle).  He tried various jacketed bullet loads with 3031, and 4895 with the 170 grain Hornady bullet.  He would get about 3.0"++  groups at 100 yards.

We live about 500 miles apart.  We got together to shoot many years ago. He brought his Marlin 336a 30-30.  He shot it, and got his 3"++ groups, and he said, "See what I mean?". This is the best it can do.".    I gave him 5 rounds of my 32/W748 170 grain Speer reload to try.    He shot them into a 1.5" group at 100 yards.   It is his standard load now.

I don't have a chronograph.  Various references indicate ~2100 +/- fps from a 20"  My barrel is 24" , so maybe add another ~100 fps (?) higher (@25 ft/second per barrel inch).

There may be an issue with using reduced loads of W748, as it is a spherical powder which may not generate enough pressure for complete powder burn.  Not sure if this applies to W748, so you may want to investigate it.

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SkinnerD posted this 3 weeks ago

Some rainy day musings... H335 is touted as being equivalent to if not the same as W748. ADI list them as equivalent even tho ADI makes neither. Any variation between the two is arguably no greater than batch to batch variations of each according to some pundits. So I'm interested as to whether anyone has experience of H335 similar to what's in the thread so far? I have a tub of H335 but no W748. I have it for its utility in other calibres but always keen to expand my awareness of what a particular powder runs well in.

Hogdon online data shows a 170gn bullet doing 2145fps at max charge of 32gn W748, 2086fps at max of 30.5gn for H335 and, for comparison, 2085fps for max of 29.2 IMR 3031, my goto powder to date for 30-30. IMR3031 has been very absent from NZ stores for a long while now and eventually I guess I'll run out of what I have. I use it for other calibres also being the versatile powder that it is.

There are bunch of powders that will run in a 30-30 and some I have so I'm fortunately not locked in. The discussion on W748 is pretty useful tho especially if H335 performs close to the same

I have never done any serious accuracy testing with my 30-30 other than sighting in at 50yrds an inch high with iron sights and going after goats and once a fallow deer which I nailed at approx 90yds. I have a 1984 manufacture 336C with factory 18.5" micro groove barrel. I recently put a Vortex Crossfire II Red Dot on it but have yet to seriously test it. I have the same RD on a Rossi 357mag and love it. Since I last took an animal with the 30-30, (been a while), I've got keen on cast bullets and more precision in shot placement. It's gotten a bit harder to get on to a good meat animal so more focused on achieving a quality carcass. Not to mention dropping the animal in the first place lol.

Anyway, comments/info appreciated. And thks for the info so far...

John - New Zealand

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mashburn posted this 2 weeks ago

Hello John in NZ,

Up until recently, the only cartridges that I loaded with 748 was my .223 and .223 Imp. That was in my prairie dog shooting days. I experimented with lots of different powders, of which, I found many that were accurate. But when loading thousands of rounds of ammo, you also want a powder that flows through the powder measure accurately. After testing several different powders, I settled on the 748 because it gave both, good accuracy and flows through the measure very well. The only fault I found; was it was a little temperature sensitive. I can't answer about the similarities between 748 and H335. So, now I have something else to think about. I have quite a bit of H335 so I'm sure I will wind up doing some experimentation.

Now to using 748 in 30-30's, I haven't loaded any 30-30 cartridges in years and years and when I did, I used various loads from several different IMR series powder. If I remember correctly the accuracy that I got from the IMR powders was acceptable but not outstanding. Several years ago, I was looking for a new powder to load some .308 Winchester cartridges and decided to try using 748. The result was, the most accurate loads that I had ever come up with. Now I have accumulated some more 30-30's that I haven't shot and have loaded a bunch of cartridges for the two of them. I haven't gotten to shoot them yet due to a bad artificial hip joint, but should be able to do so in a few days. Another reason for using 748 is I have 16 pounds of it. I've had several people tell me that 748 and RL7 are the most accurate powders to use in 30-30's. For some reason I had better luck with accuracy while using 3031 in 30-30 Improved rifles than I did with regular 30-30's. I wish I could let you have some of my IMR 3031 that I have on hand. I'm going to have to do some experimenting with the H335, you have caused my curiosity to jump sky high.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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lotech posted this 2 weeks ago


I don't recall using 748 with cast bullets in the .30-30 cartridge, but along similar lines with another ball powder, though somewhat faster than 748 is Accurate Arms 2230. Twenty to thirty years ago, I used this powder with cast bullets in virtually all of the popular .30 caliber cartridges. Accuracy was usually very good and the loads were all moderate ones, nothing light. 

Apparently I had never tried this powder with cast bullet loads on a cold day. When I did, in a .308 rifle using the SAECO #301 / RG-4 design, about 200 grains in wheelweight alloy, I got two or three hangfires. A magnum primer and / or a heavier charge  might have corrected the problem, but I chose to stop using 2230 for cast loads. 

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mashburn posted this 2 weeks ago

Hello lotech,

I have loaded up both, cast loads and jacketed loads. My cast loads are gas checked; powder coated bullets, which I start my powder charges at the beginning load for jacketed bullets and work my way up.

I loaded for two rifles, a star clone rolling block in 30-30 and an NRA commerative Win. 30-30. The sky is the limit in the little rolling block, as far as bullet length is concerned. It has a very long throat, which is the first 30-30 with such a throat that I've ever owned.

Like I said I haven't loaded for a 30-30 in years.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 2 weeks ago

Hello Wilderness,

Glad to get that comparison with the LeverRevolution. I've had some of that powder and bullets here for several years and have never got around to trying it. My jacketed loads are with 170 Gr, Sierria bullets also.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 2 weeks ago

Hello buttstock,

Your response convinced me that I chose the right powder.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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SkinnerD posted this 2 weeks ago

Well I'm glad I've got your curiosity going. IMR 3031 was the first powder I ever bought at the tender age of 22, along with a SMLE 303B that I "sporterised" with a wood rasp and sandpaper, and a Lee Loader kit. I wish I had kept the lot but as I recollect it all got exchanged for a bunch of washable nappies. What my kids owe me lol.

Many moons later I have the one 30-30 and a bunch of 303B s - and a tub and a half of IMR 3031. I'm not racing to use it, as I have other powders also. Plus I just bought a beautiful Husqvarna N38 in original as-issued nick. It should arrive next week and will likely consume my interest for a few days. But the 30-30 is not forgotten. It will definitely get some outings this summer. Let us know how you find the H335.

John - New Zealand

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mashburn posted this 2 weeks ago

Hello SkinnerD,

Yes, the period of my life where washable diapers were a necessity, had an effect on my life- style also. But as I've gotten older, I have made up for, with lots of toys.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Millelacs posted this 1 weeks ago

The good - The days when I needed to worry about diapers, we were in Manila where a maid took care of those things.

 

The bad - All my toys were in the US.

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