Tikka 223 won't shoot cast

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  • Last Post 20 February 2019
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max503 posted this 09 February 2019

I've always felt I had a Midas touch with cast bullets.  Any gun I've tried gave acceptable accuracy - until now.  My Tikka 223 won't shoot cast worth a hoot.  The gun is amazingly accurate with jacketed bullets.  So it's not the gun.  I've tried both 45 and 55 grain boolits and neither works.  It has a 1 in 12 twist.  Both of those boolits work in my Hornet.  I've tried Blue Dot, Unique, IMR 4227, and SR 4759.  They all gave consistent inconsistency.  

I've got some of that Cerro safe alloy in case I need to make a chamber casting, but I've never actually done that.  I would need help.  Like how do you funnel the melted alloy down into that deeply recessed chamber?

Maybe I need to size the boolits bigger.  Right now I'm sizing to .225 because that's the size of the dies I have.  I don't want to buy a die for my Lyman 450 and not have it work.  I like the Lyman better than the Lee push through dies.  The Lyman seats the gas check noticeably better. 

I was hoping to make this my main cast boolit gun but so far its not working.

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John Carlson posted this 20 February 2019

I've had a few days now to play with the NOE nose sizing die, even learned some things!

One is that it takes a lot more force than I'm used to when sizing bases and installing gas checks.  Some of that is surely due to the fact that this die does not make the best use of the mechanical advantage available in the press, using only maybe the first 1/8 of the stroke.

I've never lubed bullets when sizing, that doesn't work here.  Tried a thin coat of RCBS case lube, then Imperial Die Sizing Wax, finally a generous coat of STP which worked quite well.

The NOE nose punch is 1/8 inch too short to push the bullet all the way back out of the die.  Had to machine the flange on the nose punch down, making the nose itself longer, in order to eject the bullets.

The die did shave a wee bit off some bullets.  Just a little work with a fine stone cured that and it now sizes very nicely.

When sizing the nose, there is a definite "stop" as the die gets to the first driving band making it difficult to exactly size the entire nose without "bumping" the driving band.  I'm thinking of fabricating a stop as mentioned above,  Should make for a nice afternoon in the shop.

Sizing/lubing is now a three step process.  Size the base and install gas check with a Lee push through sizing die.  Size the nose.  lube with the RCBS lubrisizer which will also correct any bump of the driving band I may have caused while nose sizing.

Now all I need to do is go kill that stinking ground hog so we can get some shooting weather around here!angry

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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45 2.1 posted this 19 February 2019

  If that doesn't work I'll try sizing bigger.
I shoot rifles with 5.56 Nato throating. I went the route, over time, from 0.224" to 0.225" to 0.226" finally to 0.227" before I got rid of flyers. The bullet I use is meant to fit 5.56 Nato throats also. Bigger is better in some cases.... try it.

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max503 posted this 19 February 2019

Yes

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 February 2019

max503

Have you actually measured the twist?  Tikka's, even the older ones, came with both 8 and 12" twist barrels.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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max503 posted this 19 February 2019

I've been shooting cast LEE 55 gr sized .225 over 10 gr of 2400 for 2000 fps in the 20" barrels for several years in several .223/5.56 weapons including a Browning A-Bolt medallion, a Remington 788 with a 24" barrel that has been deep throated and in my designated cast AR15, 20" barrel, I built last summer;  All with 1 in 12" twist.  I use all 3 rifles for shooting ground squirrels out to 200 yards.  Jack rabbits out to 300 yards.  I use the same load in all 3 weapons.  Try 10 gr of 2400 over straight clip on WW.

-------------------------------------------------------

I haven't given up on that mold or rifle.  Do you bottom pour or ladle?  How are the bases on that bullet?  On mine, the sprue cut-off is a little off center.  Maybe I can adjust that by tweaking the stop tab on the cut-off plate.  I'm having a difficult time getting the gas checks on square.  

I'm going to try a hotter primer and a softer alloy.  If that doesn't work I'll try sizing bigger.

Thank you for the inspiration.

 

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max503 posted this 19 February 2019

My gun was definitely stringing.  I'll try the hotter primers for sure.

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Hornet posted this 19 February 2019

  In the .222's and .223, I also get better (rounder and smaller) groups using fairly hot primers with any powder of about Blue Dot speed or slower. I had distinct vertical stringing with Win SR, Rem 7 1/2 reduced the group widths a little and the height quite a bit, and Fed GM205M gave nice small round groups. I think the CCI BR-4 might work as well but they wand half-again as much for them around here as for the Fed GM205M. I'm not paying that much for a thousand primers. I do notice that the current reloading manuals seem to even use the Rem 7 1/2 or Fed GM205M for the K-Hornet so maybe they've noticed it too. I have not seen this on the faster powders like Unique.

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shastaboat posted this 18 February 2019

I've been shooting cast LEE 55 gr sized .225 over 10 gr of 2400 for 2000 fps in the 20" barrels for several years in several .223/5.56 weapons including a Browning A-Bolt medallion, a Remington 788 with a 24" barrel that has been deep throated and in my designated cast AR15, 20" barrel, I built last summer;  All with 1 in 12" twist.  I use all 3 rifles for shooting ground squirrels out to 200 yards.  Jack rabbits out to 300 yards.  I use the same load in all 3 weapons.  Try 10 gr of 2400 over straight clip on WW.

 

Because I said so!

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max503 posted this 18 February 2019

I was going to cast some softer bullets for the 223 but I ended up making 38 wadcutters instead.  That Lee 6 cavity wadcutter mold was running so good I plum forgot to make the 22 bullets I originally set out to make.  Oh well.

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John Carlson posted this 11 February 2019

My previous casting has all been 30 cal for old military rifles.  Sometimes could use  a bump die but never needed to make one smaller.  Looks like I'm getting a new toy!applause

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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R. Dupraz posted this 11 February 2019

"You size the driving bands a different diameter than the nose?  How do you do that?"

 

I shoot bore riders in all my cast bullet guns and the nose is sized to fit the bore with the appropriate NOE nose size bushing. Then when the bands are sized to throat, the bullet is fully fitted. When completely chambered the front of the first driving band acts as a stop when it contacts the beginning of the leade. Can adjust from there with more bolt pressure.

Usually seat long enough to see a slight engraving of the front driving band by the leade.

All of the above only apprlies if the casting is large enough to begin with of course. 

R.  

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max503 posted this 11 February 2019

It looks like the nose of the bullet contacts the rifling, stopping the forward driving band from touching anything.

From what I understand this could prevent the bullet from centering and sealing in the leade.  

Is this a problem?

Looks like all I can do is try a softer alloy.

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Hornet posted this 11 February 2019

   You don't try to crush the rifling but being able to see where there are contact marks from the rifling origin on the front of the front band maybe .005/.015 long seems to work well. Much more contact and you're trying to shove the bullet back into the case which isn't that hard to do in some cases, especially the Hornet (.007 thick brass). That can cause the bullet to stay in if you have to open the action. Ever clean 8 or so grains of 1680 out of locking lugs? A crimp helps in some instances but not always.

    As to the nose diameter, I bought one of NOE's sizing rigs and several nose sizing bushings. It works pretty well if you don't try to move too much on one pass. It allows for a good fit of a slightly oversize or out-of-round nose to the bore of that particular barrel. This helps when the mold dimensions are not exactly optimal or when an alloy change does bad things to the fit. I made a guide sleeve out of a fired 22 Mag case to help keep the bullet aligned with the push rod while nose sizing( used a .30 Carbine case for .30 cal.).

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John Carlson posted this 11 February 2019

I'm about to enter this fray myself (assuming we get some shooting weather in the next couple of monthsangry)  I have cast some NOE 227-79-SPs.  I find that, in order to be able to chamber them, I have to seat the bullet to where the front driving band is flush with the front of the case neck and the gas check is well behind the case neck.  Even there I have to pretty much slam the bolt shut.  Are other folks using this bullet having a similar experience?

I should add that the limiting factor is the front of the bullet just behind the ogive is engaging the rifling.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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max503 posted this 11 February 2019

Max,

    How about some heresy?  Size a couple of bullets through the .225 die, seat one in an expanded case neck, and chamber it to find your "jam length". Take a close look at the front edge of the front drive band. Does it show distinct marks from the rifling origin or does it have a bright contact ring all the way around? If it has a full contact ring, you might get much better results by sizing SMALLER and increasing the loaded length to the new jam length.

   The vast majority of the throats that I've checked have a little taper to them and I've always obtained the best and most consistent groups if the front band contacts the rifling origin to some degree, even if the diameter is well below what some of the "Experts" claim. My .22 K-Hornet ,using the 225462 H.P. for example, gives me a jam length of 1.741 @ .2251 Dia, 1.761 @ .2246 Dia, and 1.778 @ .2241 Dia. It does its best at the 1.778 &.2241 combination. All require sizing the nose diameter to .2184 to enter the actual bore of the barrel. Annoyingly, my Rem 788 in .223 wants the .2246 dia with a .2193 nose and the .22-250 wants .225 dia with a .220 nose. It'd be too easy if they all matched, I guess. My .270 does the same kind of thing with the jam length changing .093 going from .2780 dia to .2272 dia. Again, better groups with the smaller diameter and longer length.

    Frank Marshall once did an article where he claimed the best sizing diameter was 0.0005" under throat diameter and up to 0.001 under for hunting. Maybe he knew something.

**********************

So you're saying size the bullet down until the driving band crushes into the rifling?  I routinely adjust OAL until the bullet touches the rifling.  Not sure if the nose or the driving band is touching the rifling.  I haven't payed attention to that distinction until now.  I set the OAL to where I can feel some resistance when I'm closing the bolt.

You size the driving bands a different diameter than the nose?  How do you do that?  

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onondaga posted this 10 February 2019

I just reread a couple of old cast bullet manuals (only the sizing section!). Generalizing a bit they recommended starting at bore size and moving up to bore size +.002 to find the sweet spot. I believe it was the old RCBS manual that recommended bore size +.0005. My 243 shoots as well at .244 as .245 IF the alloy isn't too hard.

Jim

Jim, it is time to consider the old RCBS advise on fitting cast bullets an idiotically stupid method. There is more accurate advise on this topic from me in this post up the page.

Gary

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Scearcy posted this 10 February 2019

I just reread a couple of old cast bullet manuals (only the sizing section!). Generalizing a bit they recommended starting at bore size and moving up to bore size +.002 to find the sweet spot. I believe it was the old RCBS manual that recommended bore size +.0005. My 243 shoots as well at .244 as .245 IF the alloy isn't too hard.

Jim

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Hornet posted this 10 February 2019

Max,

    How about some heresy?  Size a couple of bullets through the .225 die, seat one in an expanded case neck, and chamber it to find your "jam length". Take a close look at the front edge of the front drive band. Does it show distinct marks from the rifling origin or does it have a bright contact ring all the way around? If it has a full contact ring, you might get much better results by sizing SMALLER and increasing the loaded length to the new jam length.

   The vast majority of the throats that I've checked have a little taper to them and I've always obtained the best and most consistent groups if the front band contacts the rifling origin to some degree, even if the diameter is well below what some of the "Experts" claim. My .22 K-Hornet ,using the 225462 H.P. for example, gives me a jam length of 1.741 @ .2251 Dia, 1.761 @ .2246 Dia, and 1.778 @ .2241 Dia. It does its best at the 1.778 &.2241 combination. All require sizing the nose diameter to .2184 to enter the actual bore of the barrel. Annoyingly, my Rem 788 in .223 wants the .2246 dia with a .2193 nose and the .22-250 wants .225 dia with a .220 nose. It'd be too easy if they all matched, I guess. My .270 does the same kind of thing with the jam length changing .093 going from .2780 dia to .2272 dia. Again, better groups with the smaller diameter and longer length.

    Frank Marshall once did an article where he claimed the best sizing diameter was 0.0005" under throat diameter and up to 0.001 under for hunting. Maybe he knew something.

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R. Dupraz posted this 10 February 2019

My 6mmx223 14" bull Contender pistol barrel seems to like a --12 Bhn bullet much better than one of pure Lino. 

Hope to verify if we ever Thaw out.!

 

R.

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JeffinNZ posted this 10 February 2019

Softer alloy could be the answer.  My .223 with the same twist shoots air cooled clip on wheel weight alloy at 2300fps very accurately over 13gr H4227.  Alloy is less than 10 BHN.

Cheers from New Zealand

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