Reforming brass

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sluggo posted this 5 weeks ago

I am having trouble finding 25-06 brass. (Among other items). I would like to try forming some out of 30-06 brass of which i have a lot of. Should i anneal the brass? Also should i run it through a 270 die first or can i go right to the 25-06 die? Some of this will be for my friends deer rifle with 117 gr. Jacketed bullets. The rest will be for my 25-06 with 87gr. Cast bullets. I have not done much case forming so any help will be appreciated. Thanks.

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John Carlson posted this 5 weeks ago

I have formed several hundred 30-06 brass to 25-06, one step process, much of it military brass plus various commercial brands.  No annealing, I had never heard of such a thing 45 years ago.  

Holding public office should be viewed as an obligation to serve, not an opportunity to rule.

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Bud Hyett posted this 5 weeks ago

Try a few to see what works, select brass of the same headstamp and go forth. Preferably once-fired brass, cleaned and using plenty of lubricant on the neck. Coat the neck over the full length, but not thickly. Do not allow the lubricant within the die to build up as you can get lube dents in the neck/shoulder area. 

I've formed brass going down in neck size without any problems. It's sizing up that gets me into problems. My 6X47 has been a pain, forming .222 Remington or .204 Ruger brass up for it does require annealing. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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45 2.1 posted this 5 weeks ago

I've formed 30-06 down to 25-06 with little trouble, however forming down the 270 I've acquired required neck turning. Check it before you do a big batch.

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RicinYakima posted this 5 weeks ago

For me, it depends upon the maker of the brass case. Most GI brass is annealed enough you don't have too do that with once fired and never resized. Federal usually works well for me. If reloaded a couple of times, annealing may be a good idea. 

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MarkinEllensburg posted this 4 weeks ago

All of the above. Guess I am lat e to this conversation. I did about 200 cases right before the NT in one step. However I did lube the necks inside and out, sparingly.

Agree it is best to try and see what works for you, your dies, and brass.

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sluggo posted this 4 weeks ago

Thanks everyone for your help. I can over complicate things sometimes. All this good advice should set me in the right direction.

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lotech posted this 4 weeks ago

In 1965, when I got my first rifle chambered for the then .25-06 wildcat cartridge, I formed brass using GI .30-06 brass in one pass through a .25-06 size die. I don't recall losing any cases during the process, but if I was doing this today, I'd use an intermediate .270 size die before the .25-06 die. You'll likely have to neck turn your brass after sizing, regardless of whether you use an intermediate die or not, but few handloaders neck-turned brass years ago. I never anneal unless I have to (.219 Zipper is the only one for me) and never annealed  reformed .30-06 brass. 

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GregT posted this 4 weeks ago

Forming brass cases up or down will go a lot easier if your FL dies have tapered expanders on the expander/deprimer rod as the Lee Precision dies have. In the past, I did a lot of .284 brass to 7.5x55 Swiss (Until I found it much easier to load Berdan primers and use Swiss military cases. Today Berdan primers are impossible to find unless you have a stash of them.cheerful)

GregT

Hayward, Wi.

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tlkeizer posted this 4 weeks ago

Greetings,

I have reformed a fairly significant amount of 30-06 to 25-06, cases ranging from current commercial to military 1953 brass.  I defaulted to the .270 intermediate as some would go fine and some would not, so since I have a .270 die set I just decided to do all  with the intermediate step.  I anneal, but don't remember annealing cases before re-sizing down.

One of the interesting things for me is that my best groups have all been first firing of re-sized cases, using 75, 87, and 117 grain bullets.  Not much difference in groups between first firing and following firings, but some difference like 1.1 vs 1.3 groups (example, not actual); getting under 1 inch has been done regularly, not always but regularly.  I shoot a Remington Model 700 ADL I bought in 1971 as a Christmas present for my father during my first term in the Army.   If you would like some of my load data, PM me; use data at your own discretion.

TK

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 4 weeks ago

spooky stuff ... but has anybody else thought that fireforming produces groups better than the perfectly final formed brass ? ...

one of my ace mj benchrest buddies has secretly admitted that there might be something to this.

i was afraid to be the first to mention this, but brother keizer brought it up.

or maybe we are more relaxed when fireforming and the gun knows this ... or ...  

ken

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dale2242 posted this 4 weeks ago

Back when Remington first came out with the 25-06 as a commercial caliber I bought a Remington 700 in 25-06.

There was no factory brass available in 25-06 so I ordered 100 Norma 30-06 cases.

I just ran them through the 25-06 FL die and trimmed them with no issues.

I shot them for years until I bought some Remington 25-06 cases.

 

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45 2.1 posted this 4 weeks ago

spooky stuff ... but has anybody else thought that fireforming produces groups better than the perfectly final formed brass ? ...

 

ken

One of those things that people don't believe unless they do it themselves. A lot of that goes around.

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John Alexander posted this 4 weeks ago

Surprisingly small groups while fire forming were sometimes mentioned by writers in Precision Shooting. It always seemed to me that my fire forming produced about the same accuracy as with fire formed brass if I used the same bullets.  Not sure why shooters seem to think it should be worse.

Perfectly formed brass is maybe like a lot of other unproven things that shooters think are important -- but aren't. 50,000 psi probably makes the case volume the same pretty quickly.

Equally accurate loads  A and B often seem like one or the other is better unless fairly long strings of groups of each are fired alternatively to really find out.

But, of course, accuracy during fire forming could sometimes actually be a bit better. If the energy used to reshape the brass cases causes the pressure curve to be a bit different --  thus a slightly different velocity that suits that barrel a bit better.

John 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 4 weeks ago

Some folks fire form with the bullet tight in the throat so the case head is square with the bolt face. That would seem to center the case better than just laying on the bottom of the chamber. 

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Bud Hyett posted this 4 weeks ago

Some folks fire form with the bullet tight in the throat so the case head is square with the bolt face. That would seem to center the case better than just laying on the bottom of the chamber

This is my approach, working to get uniformity. Tight is a relative term, I try for a .100 witness marks on the nose in my first attempts. The fully fireformed case will self-center, but still has to feed so the bolt closes with minimal effort. I've found that using a bushing die aids in this quest. At the beginning of each year, I full length size, neck-turn for at least 75% cleanup, anneal the cases for the coming year and then fireform each case. Lots of work, but also good practice in calling your shots as this is a leisurely day at the range. 

Note: The push feed actions with the bullet in the leade even a slight amount are like putting metal in a lathe with the headstock being the bolt face and the tailstock being the leade. this is self-centering. If one is using the claw extractor actions for uniformity, one must get the case all the way up into the bolt face by using the extreme cartridge length that will feed.

Note: I've been told my push-feed Model 70 is not as accurate as the pre-64 Model 70 by "knowledgeable" experts. A flat out offer on the spot of all cash I have in my billfold will stop that "educated" (bullshit) opinion. There are accurate pre-64 Model 70 rifles, either by chance or skillful handloading.    

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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tlkeizer posted this 4 weeks ago

Greetings,

I went back to get data on my groups for re-sized brass.  I keep both paper and computer logs, so it was digging through to get the correct data.  Here is what I came up with.  All these are 100 yards, 5-shot groups.  Cases TW 53 30-06 necked down via .270 intermediate step.

18 Mar 2015  117 gn Hornaday BTSP, 46 gn IMR 4831, CCI 200, first firing, 1 called shot left measured in group, Vert 0.238 inch, Lat 1.425 inch.  Lat w/o called shot 0.490 inch.

24 Mar 2015 same load, different cases first time fired, Vert 0.09 inch, Lat 0.55 inch.

Date not listed, 75 grain Hornaday HP, 60 gn H4831, CCI 200, Lat 0.7 inch, Vert 0.9 inch.  First firing.

29 Jun 2015   117 gn Hornaday RNFB, 49 gn H4831, CCI 200, Lat 1.23, Vert 1.13 inch, 2nd or 3rd firing.

2 Jan 2016  same loading, Lat 1.33 inch, Vert 0.45 inch.

Here is another listing of above data:

                             Lateral                        Vertical

     First firing         1.425 (0.490)                 0.238

                               0.55                              0.09

                               0.7                                0.9

 

Later firings            1.23                               1.13

                               1.33                                0.45

 

Thought I would put a few measured numbers down.  This is not an end-all delineation of data, but it does show a tendency.  I didn't have any cast bullets to work with on comparing newly vs used reformed cases, but didn't even think of the difference until after the rounds were fired and measurements taken and compared.  I don't have any more cases to re-size, and have more than enough for my shooting, so won't be doing any future comparisons of first time use vs multiple loaded cases. All shots are off sand bags, single case loaded by placing in chamber.   I have some 200 and 300 yard data, suffice it to say they would all get caribou, but I  don't like to shoot that far away if I don't have too (I do not make a good pack mule any more).  Have fun, stay healthy.

TK

 

 

 

 

 

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John Alexander posted this 4 weeks ago

TK,

Thanks for posting the additional data.  You don't say how many before and after groups you averaged for the data posted but even if only a few of each that looks like a significant difference.

Wow, that give us something to think about. Does anybody else have group averages similar, or not similar, to these?  I don't even have a plausible BS theory that might explain. If we could figure out what is causing this might be useful to watch out for in reloading?

John

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Millelacs posted this 2 weeks ago

     Some folks fire form with the bullet tight in the throat so the case head is
     square with the bolt face. That would seem to center the case better
     than just laying on the bottom of the chamber

I recall years ago, about using orthodontist rubber bands to center .303 British casings in loose chambers, to concentrically position the casing to the chamber, when fireforming..

While this was intended for rimmed casings, it might help more concentrically position casings when fireforming brass for rimless calibers.

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