PC or conventional lube

  • 547 Views
  • Last Post 01 January 2023
Mfitz717 posted this 09 December 2022

I’m planning on starting to cast in the new year, mainly for pistol but some rifle and was wondering what advantages/disadvantages to powder coat versus conventional lube are. I highly appreciate all and any info. Thanks, Matt

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
delmarskid posted this 01 January 2023

If I were starting out I would use White Label tumble lube until I had a good handle on what I wanted to do and then try powder coating if I felt the inclination.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
  • Aaron
Aaron posted this 01 January 2023

In reading the replies above, some long held MYTHS about lead bullets are ringing out - as usual.

Myth: Lead bullets will lead your barrel. Powder coated bullets will not.

Fact: Lead bullets when cast of an appropriate alloy and lubricated with an appropriate bullet lube, and sized correctly - DO NOT LEAD BARRELS. Pressures (Pmax) must be matched with alloy of course. I have pictures of my 45ACP barrel off my 1911 after firing 500 rounds of lead bullets, with ZERO leading. Proper casting technique and experience prevents leading. Knowing the causes of leading and dealing with them will prevent leading.

Myth: Powder coated bullets, like jacketed bullets, provide greater velocity ranges.

Fact: Metal, ALL METAL, flows under sufficient pressure regardless of what is coating it. Do not for one second believe that a .002" polymer jacket will prevent a standard lead core from flowing out of shape at 55,000 PSI. If you wish to test this out yourself, load a standard 45 Caliber copper jacketed bullet into a 454 Casull case at full pressure and fire it. That bullet will disintegrate in the bore. One needs the specialty bullets, with thicker jacket material, to survive the trip down a 454 Casull barrel at the pressures generated by this cartridge - or one needs a sufficiently hard CAST BULLET to survive the same trip. Lead bullets of proper alloy have a vast range of velocities and pressures.

To date, anyone placing polymer coatings on lead bullets and shooting them is a beta tester. We have some good knowledge about it, but powder coating is not a "silver bullet" for ignorance, inexperience, or laziness. It does have a place, but I doubt we will see it replace bullet lubricants any time soon.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
lotech posted this 31 December 2022

I don't powder coat at this time and haven't seen a need to do, but I'll certainly not criticize the process.  If you'll start with conventional sizing and lubing, I think you'll gain a far better general understanding of cast bullets and have a much better basic cast bullet education, something that would be quite helpful if you later decide to powder coat. Just look at it as a prerequisite course. 

It's apparent from reading posts elsewhere that some folks, maybe many who powder coat and had no previous experience with conventional lubing and sizing never learned about many of the fundamentals of cast bullet work, a definite handicap. 

It takes more time to do things as suggested here, but the invaluable background is worth the trouble. 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
sghart3578 posted this 31 December 2022

I must be doing something wrong.  I have been using Alox for years in handgun and rifle.  Low velocity, high velocity, you name it.

I don't get leading.  My bullets fit my guns.  My loads are no where near as smokey as some of the bullets that come lubed from commercial casters.  Clean up consists of a damp patch of Ed's Red.

I cast, pull the bullets out of the water bucket and size.  A light tumble in Alox and there you go.  Two coats for my rifle bullets that I load above 1600 fps.

I still have my RCBS LAM.  I hold on to it for nostalgia I guess.  If i were going to start over as a young man I might try PC but at this point I have something that works and works well.

Attached Files

Shuz posted this 31 December 2022

I have been casting for nearly 60 years now, and here's my experience with pc vs regular lubed boolits: pc is great for revolver and semiautomatic pistols but not so great for rifle shooting. Previous posters have laid out quite well the reasons and I have found them to be true.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
dannyd93140 posted this 30 December 2022

Everyone is going to be different; Been casting 35 years tired powder coating and it just was not for me.  By the time I setup everything I could have lubed 500 bullets on the Star and been done.  I like to buy bullets with the Hi-Tek coating but would never do that procedure myself around the house.  

If your starting out;  a Lee sizer and their coating or Liquid/Tumble Cast Bullet Lube from the link below work good. 

Cast cheap for a while to see if you like it because I have purchased a lot of equipment from people who started and then decided it was not for them.

https://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4&zenid=dbf8e9f1181198966913ce3589771f5d

Attached Files

gard72977 posted this 30 December 2022

I PC for rifles and use Hi-Tek for auto hand guns. The Hi-Tek does not add to the bullet diameter enough to matter. It's a whole other animal to learn

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • JetMech
Buttersdad posted this 14 December 2022

I started my experience with casting using Lee liquid alox tumble lube. The smell permeated our house and I did get some leading in my handguns. I started powder coating my pills just a few months after I started casting. My accuracy is very good, I don't have any problems with chambering and cleaning is a breeze. It works great for me, ymmv.

Attached Files

BigMan54 posted this 11 December 2022

Duane, 

Thank You, I didn't think of this until the 10th or 11th round.

Of course it had been about 50yrs since I last had to do it. 

It was common practice around my house to breakdown G.I. .30-06 and .45ACP that was old enough to be loaded with Corrosive primers. My Dad HATED G.I. bore cleaner with a passion. So we broke down ammo, deprimed & reamed primer pockets. Then reprimed with modern commercial primers and put every cartridge back together.  Never having even smelled the stuff until I went into the U. S. Navy in 1971, I then understood why.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

Attached Files

Boschloper posted this 11 December 2022

At 68 I am one of the medium old guys. I shoot pc in handguns (revolvers and autos) for the above stated reasons - bullets aren’t sticky, less smoke, and the guns are cleaner. I shoot lubed in rifles for the above stated reasons - pc on long bore riding noses don’t always chamber well.

My advice to new casters is to lube everything. You don’t need to spend big $$ on a lubrisizer.  Consider pan lubing or liquid alox and the Lee push thru sizer.

Powder coating is a great option, but it can wait.

Attached Files

Mfitz717 posted this 10 December 2022

I will have to look that video up. I use bullseye for 40 and 45 acp for cast bullets (commercially made ones for now until I get set up).

Attached Files

Duane Mellenbruch posted this 10 December 2022

BigMan54

"Another thing that I have personally discovered,  powder Coated bullets do NOT like to be removed from their cartridge cases after a few weeks. The PC melds itself to the inside of the cartridge case and can take up to 10-12 hard whacks with an impact hammer type bullet puller."

You may need to just bump the nose of the bullets in a seating die, set to not add crimp, to break the seal formed between the case and the bullet.  This is a common practice for the old ammo with the asphalt sealant to make it water proof.

 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
Spindrift posted this 10 December 2022

PC or lube, which technique is the best?

 

There is no simple answer to this question, it depends on what your preferred kind of shooting is, what your success criteria are and what kind of guns you’ll be shooting. I shoot both lubed bullets, and PC bullets. But I find myself shooting PC bullets more and more. I’ll try to summarize some points and considerations.

 

1) Set-up cost. The PC technique requires an oven to cook the bullets. A cheap, garage sale oven will work. And you need some polymer powder, of course (tip: Eastwood Ford, light blue). You can size your bullets in the cheap Lee push-through sizers. Or you can get the ingenious NOE bushing sizer, which will allow you a lot of sizing options for low cost.

Using tumble lube, or pan lube, is also low- cost. But lube-sizers and the necessary size dies are expensive.

 

2) Size considerations. PC adds about 0,002in to the diameter of the bullet. This is an aspect of the technique that cannot simply be labelled an «advantage» or «disadvantage». It is a phenomenon associated with the technique that may sometimes cause problems, and sometimes solve problems. Some of my best loads, are PC loads with bullets that were under-sized in the first place- not at all an uncommon problem. But I also have some bullet/gun combinations where the added girth of the PC renders the bullet unusable (chambering issues). 

Some designs work better with PC than others. Feel free to ask of you want further opinions.

 

3) Flexibility. PC bullets have a much wider envelope of usable loads. With gas checked PC bullets, you can typically take your «random scrap alloy»- bullets into jacketed bullet load data, using standard factory guns and moulds. GC- designs can shoot really well without the GC, provided they have a reasonable bearing surface despite the absence of a GC. 

I particularily appreciate coated PB bullets. I shoot such bullets with good accuracy at velocities around 2000fps, without the workload of making and installing gas checks. 

 

4) Function. I have no self-loading firearms myself. But I’ve understood that getting predictable, unproblematic function with lubed bullets in gas- operated semiautos is not always a trivial matter. 

PC bullets tend to put the cold-bore shot in the group, and they are impervious to the ambient temperature. This is of course a great advatage if you’re hunting. PC will not melt in hot weather either, which is great if you’re living in a hot climate.

 

 

5) Practicality. Once the bullets are coated, there is no expusure to neither lead, nor sticky stuff. And they leave the barrel so clean, I have practically stopped cleaning my guns. There is much less smoke when shooting, which might be appreciated by those shooting indoors.

 

For someone starting this hobby now, my advice would be to look into the PC technique. 

 

For someone who’s been shooting lubed bullets for 60 years, already have all the necessary equipment, and find the performance of their ammo satisfying, there is of course no point in changing anything. Unless you simply want to learn a new skill. 

Good luck!

Attached Files

BigMan54 posted this 10 December 2022

Something to consider AGAINST Powder Coat.

Recent tests have revealed that PC does not react well in contact with double base smokless powder. This has only become apparent in the last several months. 

In particular Bullseye & Titegroup,  2 of the most popular powders to  cast bullets shooters of handgun cartridges. 

Seek out "Viejo" on You-tube. He has a couple of videos on this and links to other casters doing similar tests.

Another thing that I have personally discovered,  powder Coated bullets do NOT like to be removed from their cartridge cases after a few weeks. The PC melds itself to the inside of the cartridge case and can take up to 10-12 hard whacks with an impact hammer type bullet puller. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
Wm Cook posted this 09 December 2022

Great topic and the consensus so far is kind of expected considering the experience on this forum. On the bollit forum the drive by opinion’s on pc vs lube would confuse a priest at a beauty pageant. I agree with all of the above. Tom’s post said it as succinctly as many of the others. “ Agree with Duane and David…..As a first time caster, sticking with the basics is the route that should be taken. This will assure that stumbling around with PC doesn’t discourage you and cause you to abandon casting.” PC adds another variable to the already crowed list of what to control. KISS. Again, great topic for someone that’s new to cast and hats off to the contributors of the CBA forum. Good luck. Bill C.

Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a delay tactic.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
Mfitz717 posted this 09 December 2022

I truly appreciate all the replies as I was unable to find much info on downsides of PC bullets. I mainly plan to cast for revolvers/ semi auto handguns and some rifles. In the future I’d like to cast for an AR but for the meantime mainly pistol/bolt action. Most of the stuff I currently have is geared towards conventional lubed bullets. I’m waiting on a luber/sizer. Then I’ll need a furnace and top punches/sizers. Only thing I’m missing is lube and good supply of lead.

Attached Files

Eutectic posted this 09 December 2022

Powder coating of bullets cast in standard molds will cause you to size the bullets even more than the amount designed into the mold. Excessive sizing nearly always causes loss of accuracy. As explained above, bore ride nose bullets will probably not chamber when powder coated. This means you need to buy a custom mold designed to cast the correct diameter to powder coat.  The bullets from the custom mold will be undersize for normal lubing.

Look carefully at the coating, baking, perhaps recoating and rebaking steps needed. Weigh that against coating with a liquid lube drying and loading. If they need sizing an inexpensive LEE sizer makes for fast work.   

The "freedom from leading" claim is true except correctly sized and loaded bullets with liquid or wax lubes do not lead. If your loads lead you are doing something wrong! 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Maven
Lee Guthrie posted this 09 December 2022

I agree with all the above, especially Duane and Tom.  

I've noticed, from FaceBook forums, that the folks who absolutely adore powder coating seem to consist heavily of: (1) younger shooters; (2) new to cast shooters; (3) AR shooters; (4) and did I mention younger shooters who like pretty colored bullets.  Conventional cast bullets are less accomodating to the high velocities needed to cycle their plastic guns.

Big fat and slow is the way to go...............   And no, I'm not referring to myself.  applause

Attached Files

porthos posted this 09 December 2022

my rifles and hndguns don't lead. i don't see any of the match winners powdercoating (well, maybe a couple). eaisier to size and lube than to powdercoat. so, why would i ever want to do that??

Attached Files

axman posted this 09 December 2022

As a 30 yr bullet caster, the above 3 responses are the best I’ve ever read as to powder coating and it’s pro’s and con’s.

Attached Files

Show More Posts
Close