Mold Temperature

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  • Last Post 04 July 2022
Wm Cook posted this 01 July 2022

Is it common knowledge that what a mold temperature is effects the weight of the bullet that it drops?

That if you cast with an external mold temperature running 370, that it will cast bullets lighter than if the mold was running say at about 405. Example 214.5 @ 370 vs 215.2 @ 405.

Zip, zero, none, nada insinuation that light vs heavy or mixing and sorting would have any effect on accuracy. Or if it even makes a difference for any practical reason what’s so ever.

Just a question about what the general consensus is about mold temperatures and it’s effect on cast weight.
Thanks as always, Bill Cook

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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Aaron posted this 04 July 2022

I’ve had a hundred 215.246gr hand picked match grade bullets tumbling in my walnut media all afternoon.

   My God man! 9 out of 10 scientists recommend ground corn cob media. coffee

I do kind of shine them up though. Seems to work.

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Wm Cook posted this 03 July 2022

Oh man! Don’t do that. I thought you were serious!

I’ve had a hundred 215.246gr hand picked match grade bullets tumbling in my walnut media all afternoon.

You know how I am about chasing the next greatest insight into cast accuracy. , Bill.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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Aaron posted this 03 July 2022

Aaron; that cracked me up.  Bill C

    Everybody gets so worked up so fast lately. Over casting temperature! Families are getting blown to pieces in different parts of the world and we are ready to kill each other over a temperature opinion? SMH

Just was trying to de-escalate the conversation before hot lead got thrown around. A little humor never hurts right? And man - I like to shine up my bullets.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Wm Cook posted this 03 July 2022

TRKakaCatWhisperer wrote"

The value that I found in weighing each bullet (as they were cast) is that it forced me to be more consistent in my timing/techniques.

Just my personal opinion but I think most all casters get into a cadence and (needed or not needed) take the time to sort out the extremes.  Not may casters use a clock to time for the cast to set and time for the mold to cool.

Youze guys. Everybody knows the secret to MOA accuracy with cast bullets is NOT weight, but how they look. Bright and shiny bullets shoot better and group better. Shine 'em up guys and they will all go through the same hole

Aaron; that cracked me up.  Bill C

 

 

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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Aaron posted this 03 July 2022

Youze guys. Everybody knows the secret to MOA accuracy with cast bullets is NOT weight, but how they look. Bright and shiny bullets shoot better and group better. Shine 'em up guys and they will all go through the same hole! coffee

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 03 July 2022

The value that I found in weighing each bullet (as they were cast) is that it forced me to be more consistent in my timing/techniques.

 

 

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Wm Cook posted this 03 July 2022

I posted a thread specific to Sorting Bullets to Improve Accuracy if anyone is so interested.

Its OK if the thread wanders around.  I got the jest of the answers to what I was asking.  I believe the consensus folks have on monitoring mold temperature is that it doesn't have added value and for the most part mold temperature isn't looked at very closely.  With the exception of Gunarea most folks have general knowledge that mold temperature effects bullet weight but it adds little value to the casting process.

I'll post something in the next few weeks that'll put numbers behind the bullet weight variation between a mold temperature of, say 375 degrees and a mold temperature of, say 405 degrees.  Thanks, Bill C.

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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RicinYakima posted this 03 July 2022

ST Machining (Cabin Tree), Walla Walla, WA,  makes a cam over handle that was highly regarded by the BPCR bullet casters. While expensive, in my opinion, they work just as advertised to problem moulds. 

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Ross Smith posted this 03 July 2022

Delmarskid: I have one very good but very mildly warped mold that threw bullets of different diameter depending on my arthritic hand grip. So I modified some vise grips to work as mold handels and now that is a very consistent mold.

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John Alexander posted this 03 July 2022

Without evidence or facts a discussion turns into hot air.  Let's agree to stop further hijacking Bill's thread.

John

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MP1886 posted this 02 July 2022

MP 1886,

Everybody knew the earth is flat, the sun revolves around earth, a lead ball will fall faster than a wooden ball, it is simple logic or observation. People using experiments showed all these known facts were wrong.  

Believing that sorting bullets to 0.1% makes them shoot better groups than unsorted bullets that may vary two or three times as much is apparently just as obvious to you, and a lot of other shooters as well -- and just as wrong. This isn't just my opinion it is the result of wasting components to find out.  I have done dozens of cast bullet tests similar to the one Bill proposed and haven't been able to find what you think you know.  Berger Benchrest bullets varying 1.4% in weight (28 times larger than the 0.1% CB shooters sort to) averaged 8-five shot groups into about 0.3" at 100 yards.

Even Aristotle, a guy far smarter than you and me, "knew" that women had fewer teeth than men. Since he knew THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE he didn't need to waste time counting his wife's teeth to find out the truth.

The world isn't as simple and transparent as we would like it to be and we don't know everything we think we know. 

John

 

John old chap, you make it so easy to insult you, BUT I WON/\'T. 

 

How do you know Aristoltle was far smarter than you or I.  That's just your assumption.  If we could bring him back and put the three of us through a rigid IQ test in areas of study he may not have been.  

What does it prove with you shoot those weight sorted bullets, sorted to say .10 or less when you don't have anything to compare too unless you shoot the group with mulitple weight bullets!!!!!

I've done tests and I found out what works and doesn't work.  John cast bullets that don't weigh the same can often have a flaw you can't see.  Such as a small void. I agree that many benchresters don't weight their bullets.  I''ve seen data on that that makes some of them seem worse the bad cast cast bullet, but I doubt they will have a flaw. 

John I don' t shoot the velocities that most of you all here shoot. My development has been high velocity cast shooting.  With that everything has to be "right". 

 

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John Alexander posted this 02 July 2022

MP 1886,

Everybody knew the earth is flat, the sun revolves around earth, a lead ball will fall faster than a wooden ball, it is simple logic or observation. People using experiments showed all these known facts were wrong.  

Believing that sorting bullets to 0.1% makes them shoot better groups than unsorted bullets that may vary two or three times as much is apparently just as obvious to you, and a lot of other shooters as well -- and just as wrong. This isn't just my opinion it is the result of wasting components to find out.  I have done dozens of cast bullet tests similar to the one Bill proposed and haven't been able to find what you think you know.  Berger Benchrest bullets varying 1.4% in weight (28 times larger than the 0.1% CB shooters sort to) averaged 8-five shot groups into about 0.3" at 100 yards.

Even Aristotle, a guy far smarter than you and me, "knew" that women had fewer teeth than men. Since he knew THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE he didn't need to waste time counting his wife's teeth to find out the truth.

The world isn't as simple and transparent as we would like it to be and we don't know everything we think we know. 

John

 

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MP1886 posted this 02 July 2022

 

It's not a logical test at all.  He'd be shooting bullets that all weigh about the same. A better test would be to shoot  a group with some that weigh the same and then shoot a group with a mixture of different weights.  An analog would be, for an example, you have a  223 and you have jacketed MATCH bullets of various weighs, preferrabley from the same manufacture.  Let's say 53 gr, 55 gr, 62 gr, and 70 gr.  Now if you were to shoot a group using all one weight, but what would happen if you shot  3 of each into one group.  Do you think the group would be the same as the groups shot with only one weight?  Bill's wasting his componants.

=========

You and I must have a different definition of logical. It is common for CB shooters to weight sort their bullets to less than one  tenth of one percent variation ( 0.2 grain in 200 grain bullets) to shoot groups of unsorted bullets that might vary 0.3 to 0.5 percent vs. sorted bullets to see if sorting is improving groups or whether it is a waste of time is a great example of acting logically.

On the other hand, shooting groups with a mixture of 53 and 70 grain bullets as you suggest (a variation of 30 percent  -- 300 time more than sorting 200 grain to 0.1%) seems frivolous because that isn't answering the question (is sorting  to 0.1 percent worthwhile). Additionally, most shooters find out early on that if they change from 150 to 180 grain bullets in their 06 they had better find a new zero. So any knowledge shooter already knows the answer to your proposed test.

John 

 John, for God's sake, that  was an exagerated analogy.  I've weight sorted bullets and doing so DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE.  But I'm not going to do a big test and waste my time and componants to prove it to  you gentleman. I still stand behind my statement Bill's wasting his time and componants.  Any knowledgeable reloader would know if you shoot bullets that wieigh very close to one another are going to shoot better then shooting various weights. It doesn't matter what the bullet material is made of. 

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John Alexander posted this 02 July 2022

 

It's not a logical test at all.  He'd be shooting bullets that all weigh about the same. A better test would be to shoot  a group with some that weigh the same and then shoot a group with a mixture of different weights.  An analog would be, for an example, you have a  223 and you have jacketed MATCH bullets of various weighs, preferrabley from the same manufacture.  Let's say 53 gr, 55 gr, 62 gr, and 70 gr.  Now if you were to shoot a group using all one weight, but what would happen if you shot  3 of each into one group.  Do you think the group would be the same as the groups shot with only one weight?  Bill's wasting his componants.

=========

You and I must have a different definition of logical. It is common for CB shooters to weight sort their bullets to less than one  tenth of one percent variation ( 0.2 grain in 200 grain bullets) to shoot groups of unsorted bullets that might vary 0.3 to 0.5 percent vs. sorted bullets to see if sorting is improving groups or whether it is a waste of time is a great example of acting logically.

On the other hand, shooting groups with a mixture of 53 and 70 grain bullets as you suggest (a variation of 30 percent  -- 300 time more than sorting 200 grain to 0.1%) seems frivolous because that isn't answering the question (is sorting  to 0.1 percent worthwhile). Additionally, most shooters find out early on that if they change from 150 to 180 grain bullets in their 06 they had better find a new zero. So any knowledge shooter already knows the answer to your proposed test.

John 

 

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MP1886 posted this 02 July 2022

Bill sez: "Once I understand the effect of mold/alloy temperature there will be 10 shot groups shot with like "light" bullets, 10 shot groups shot with "heavy" bullets and 10 shot groups shot with a mix match of heavy/light bullets."

Excellent idea. I will be very interested in your results.  Great idea for another thread. It would be nice if all the posters above who believe minimum bullet weight variation is important for good accuracy would all shoot a similar test. It would be interesting to see the results. Sort of a cooperative joint experiment. I would be happy to participate if there is any interest.  Pretty easy to do even if two ten shot groups of each condition. I won't hold my breath. It is easier to just "know" something, and it may be threatening to put what one knows to a test.

John

 

It's not a logical test at all.  He'd be shooting bullets that all weigh about the same. A better test would be to shoot  a group with some that weigh the same and then shoot a group with a mixture of different weights.  An analog would be, for an example, you have a  223 and you have jacketed MATCH bullets of various weighs, preferrabley from the same manufacture.  Let's say 53 gr, 55 gr, 62 gr, and 70 gr.  Now if you were to shoot a group using all one weight, but what would happen if you shot  3 of each into one group.  Do you think the group would be the same as the groups shot with only one weight?  Bill's wasting his componants.  

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Hornet posted this 01 July 2022

   I've done a LOT of weight sorting, not so much trying for absolute uniformity but trying to eliminate the outliers at the high and low ends of the weight distribution bell curve (which has some skew in it with castings). I've found that if I interrupt a casting run for a few minutes and the mold cools a bit, I will get slightly lighter bullets for the next few pourings until things come back up to a more stable temperature. The lighter ones don't need to have any visual defects or porosity explain the weight difference. The ones that I've checked are frequently just a touch ( on the order 0.0005" or so) smaller in diameter and probably length. This COULD be from the material in the sprue solidifying slightly sooner and not feeding metal into the cavity as the bullets shrink while solidifying. I have seen that happen in injection molding plastic when the fill & pack-out times are cut back too far. I usually toss the first 5-6 pours back into the pot and that seems to get rid of most of them.

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John Alexander posted this 01 July 2022

Bill sez: "Once I understand the effect of mold/alloy temperature there will be 10 shot groups shot with like "light" bullets, 10 shot groups shot with "heavy" bullets and 10 shot groups shot with a mix match of heavy/light bullets."

Excellent idea. I will be very interested in your results.  Great idea for another thread. It would be nice if all the posters above who believe minimum bullet weight variation is important for good accuracy would all shoot a similar test. It would be interesting to see the results. Sort of a cooperative joint experiment. I would be happy to participate if there is any interest.  Pretty easy to do even if two ten shot groups of each condition. I won't hold my breath. It is easier to just "know" something, and it may be threatening to put what one knows to a test.

John

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delmarskid posted this 01 July 2022

and then I wonder about grip strength on mold handles

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Aaron posted this 01 July 2022

What follows is PURE SPECULATION.

I don't think a 50 degree mold temperature variation will affect bullet weight, all other things being equal, unless that 50 degree variation is near the liquidus temperature of the alloy which generally is a lot lower than the casting temperature. Temperature variation may contribute to wrinkles, voids, and such, which will affect bullet weight of course.

I think you are inferring that casting temperature variation of the mold will affect bullet size and therefore bullet weight. The minuscule size variation of a mold cavity from a 50 degree variance is all but immeasurable and that variance has an insignificant affect on bullet size and therefore weight. Of much more significance to where that bullet may strike with a .0003gr difference in weight is your optical acuity. cool

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Wm Cook posted this 01 July 2022

I was hoping to avoid this going into the "Must Weight" versus "Weighting Not Needed" camps but I guess it was inevitable.  That said:

  • I have seen data that showed that weighting to the tenth of a grain had no impact on accuracy.
  • I have not seen data that showed by weighing to the tenth of a grain has an impact on accuracy, but I always have an open mind and willing to learn.

My focus has been on whether mold/alloy temperature has an impact on bullet drop weight.  After the last 6 or so casting sessions I'm close to saying that there is data that supports that a mold at x temperature will yield a bullet heavier or lighter than a mold at y temperature.

Once I understand the effect of mold/alloy temperature there will be 10 shot groups shot with like "light" bullets, 10 shot groups shot with "heavy" bullets and 10 shot groups shot with a mix match of heavy/light bullets.  My expectations for finding anything different than what others have found is not that high.  In other words, that a few tenths of a thousands ("few" defined by the user) has no effect on accuracy.

What I am interested in seeing is 10 shot groups shot with bullets coming from the same mold temperature.  Which if found to be a positive effect on accuracy will create an aura of magic/mystery around the metallurgical fusion of of the cast alloy at x temperature.  Understanding that is way above my pay scale. 

Thanks, Bill Cook (obviously retired, A+ personality and it appears that I have too much time on my hands)

PS: To keep this into perspective: "Accuracy requires the user to be using match grade casting, reloading and bench equipment and match grade casting, reloading and bench practices".

 

A “Measured Response” is as effective as tongue lashing a stuck door.

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