Maybe I should have weighed my bullets...

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 30 October 2022

I was trying some different bullets and different powders the other day looking for a "new" match load for my old M-70 30-06 since I don't have much RL-7 left and there's no telling when it might become available again.  I shoot the Lyman #314299 in a lot of my milsurps and it shoots real well, so I tried it in the M-70.  It's a bit fat so I ran it into a Coaxisizer die to slim it down (body and nose) and loaded it over 22 grains of IMR-4227, firing it off with WLP primers (yes, pistol primers).  Velocity was 1625 fps. Nine of the 10 shots made a respectable group for an old factory rifle, with one "what the??"

The wind was blowing from 12:00, but not THAT much!

Glenn

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Aaron posted this 30 October 2022

I too am at that point where I am using old stock powders that I would have never used in certain calibers. Same with primers on the low to mid pressure stuff in rifles.

The good news is that I am seeing more and more powders appearing at the large internet suppliers. Why they are making #8 jugs instead of 8 #1 pound jugs is beyond me. The new prices for powder and primers is, I think, interrupting a lot of sales. My last brick of primers from MidwayUSA was $124 with shipping and hazmat applied to the $89 brick. And you can only order 1 brick. I have applied the brakes now myself at those prices. Just not gonna pay it.

I'll wait for the LGS to get stocked eventually. Ammunition is back on shelves there now so perhaps we are seeing the end of the production limitations. Now we just have to deal with horrendous pricing. I have faith the market will self correct.

 

 

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RicinYakima posted this 30 October 2022

I would suspect a low velocity shot. Power positioned in a different part of the case? Pistol primer? Bent bullet from the second sizing activity?

Shoot 10 more same load and see what happens. 

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Idahocaster posted this 30 October 2022

If that were one of my groups the nut behind the trigger would be the number 1 suspect. I'm getting better, but I still cause fliers on a regular basis.

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 31 October 2022

Ric, that's probably the best explanation.  The chronograph wasn't lined up good enough so I only got a few readings with that load.  Powder was oriented to the front of the case each shot.  I used to tip the muzzle up for my bench shooting with CBs but that's not allowed at Pioneer where the CBA Nationals are held now.  In my testing with the M1 Garand (which is HIGHLY POI sensitive with velocity variations) I found I got the same velocity with the powder at the front of the case or level in the case.  So if the powder settles a bit from snapping the cartridge into the magazine before feeding, the velocity shouldn't be greatly affected if it's oriented forward.  Theoretically.

Idahocaster, I suffer the same malady!

Glenn

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RicinYakima posted this 31 October 2022

Semi-autos are always an issue as the powder position is random. At Pioneer, I tapped the cartridge on the action of the '03 Springfield, bullet up,  then laid it onto the follower and chambered. No suggestion for using an M1. 

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Wm Cook posted this 31 October 2022

Glen could I ask what your bore dimension is and what you sized the nose down to? Do you see lands marking the nose? Bill C

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45 2.1 posted this 31 October 2022

Semi-auto firearms require a different bullet fitting procedure than any bolt gun out there. Nothing touches the throat or bore when seating. That requires a bullet that actually fits the throat and leade that the gun has... NOT a two diameter bore riding nose bullet. Yep, there are some out there. The throat/leade in most all rifles that have been shot a bite have a a curved funnel shaped engagement that you should nearly match. I've plotted these throats out on numerous 30 caliber rifles of new to very worn configurations and they all do the same thing. This has worked fine for me since the mid 80's and produces excellent results.

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Wm Cook posted this 31 October 2022

Glen’s shooting an 06 bolt gun. And maybe I didn’t ask my question the right way.

Here’s what I was asking: - What is the diameter of the rifle bore.
- What is the diameter of the bullet nose. Thanks, Bill.

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 01 November 2022

Bill, sorry I didn't reply sooner.  Day job, family obligations, etc.  You know the drill.

The M-70 has typical 30 caliber dimensions, bore and groove within a few tenths of .300 & .308.  The factory throat was reamed a bit with a .310 x 3° throater years ago so I could seat heavier CBs out farther.  The 314299 after running thru the die is about .302" x .310".

Glenn

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Wm Cook posted this 5 weeks ago

A .300 bore with a .302 nose should give you significant bearing surface. So much that you’re probably seated off the lands because the 06 case neck has plenty of room for the bullet base.

Or maybe your too far off the lands and if you seat it out further to contact the lands so to give the nose something to triangulate with the bolt face??

I’ve solved some of my flier problems by going with a smaller target so I couldn’t see the bullet(s) that flung because it was off the paper. Good luck, you’ll figure it out. Bill.

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Hornet posted this 5 weeks ago

You might do well to retry those with a standard large rifle primer. IMR 4227 seems a little harder to ignite uniformly in loads that leave a lot of empty space than expected from the load data. SR 4759 lights easier and still gets flakey in loads with lots of space (got issues with it in my 7 Mag. and light loads). 

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Larry Gibson posted this 5 weeks ago

Proper weight sorting the bullets will help eliminate flyers.  

However, I suspect an ignition problem exacerbated by the use of LP primers, powder position and, perhaps, the psi is at the bottom end for 4227 to burn efficiently.

I suggest, as RicinYakima suggests, tap the case with the bullet up (I tap on the bench) the twist/roll the case slightly between the fingers then with the bullet up as much as possible insert the case base into the action against the bolt face and lay it down on the follower.  If a push feed leave it laying there, if a CRF action gently push the cartridge into the magazine.  Gently close the bolt.  This is the procedure I use with my match bolt guns when no filler is used.  Using measurements of velocity and pressure plus accuracy on target this method has proven to give the best results.  

You might also try a bit more 4227 if the LPs is what you must use.

Additionally, I suggest drilling out the flash holes with a # 30 or #28 drill at the largest, that will allow the flash to get into the case faster and more uniformly.  Extensive testing with full power jacketed loads in the 308W has proven it does not raise pressure in or out of the primer and is not dangerous.  With reduced loads this also most often reduces the es and SD and improves accuracy.  

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 5 weeks ago

Thanks Larry.  IMR4227 seems to burn just fine in these light loads, I've been getting standard deviations in the mid-teens with it and H4198 with the powder in the front of the case.  I did this powder orientation because I found that I got the same velocity with the powder in the front of the case or level in the case.  Velocities were of course higher with the powder in the back of the case.  Since I snap the cartridge into the magazine for this controlled round feeding action, I figure if the powder is disturbed in all the handling, the velocity should not be affected.  I also tried 2400 and with this same loading method I got SDs in the single digits.  But the powder I'm going to work with more is Accurate LT-30.  It's a fine grain extruded powder which is supposed to be about the same burning rate as 4198.  I tried one load (22 grains) with it and a 195 grain Hoch bullet and got a velocity of 1741 and a SD of 10.  And a decent group, minus the flyer!

Glenn

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G.Chapman posted this 4 weeks ago

  • Just a thought here regarding those pesky flyers that may or may not be apropos to the discussion.  I was thinking about this thread tonight as I was prepping a batch of once-fired brass for a new-to-me Savage 340 in 30-30.  Part of my prep routine for any new batch of brass,  new brass or otherwise, is flash-hole uniforming & chamfering.  Probably all of you guys do this anyway,  but it always strikes me as to how BAD flash hole uniformity is with the brass we use!  Out of 100 cases prepped I will invariably have 6 or 8 with the flash holes severely deformed, with edges & "flashing" from the manufacturing process occluding 1/4 or more of the hole on the inside of the case.  With the other thread going on right now about primers, and the flame shape of various types & brands, how can a deformed flash hole NOT somewhat affect ignition, and thus potentially cause a flyer? 

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 4 weeks ago

G.Chapman,

   Good idea, I did that to these cases back when I started using them for match shooting years ago.

Here are some of the other groups I shot that day:

20 gr. of IMR4227 and the 195 gr, Hoch bullet.  No velocity recorded.

17.5 2400 and the Hoch bullet. Vel appx 1560.  This one is interesting because the tight 5 shots around the "S" are the first 5.  If I'd stopped there I would have thought I had a killer load.  Still wouldn't hurt to try it again.

20 grs. of IMR4227 and the 180 gr. Saeco 315 bullet.  As the note states, this load leaded - bad!  The bullet was the proper size, but being a tapered bullet I had to seat it well off the lands to get it in the case neck.  It probably had a 1/8" jump, and that gave the gas a chance to do its dirty work.  Vel. 1705, SD 15.

I was clicking the scope adjustments around becase of the various bullet weights and velocities, so don't read anything into the various POIs.

Glenn

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 4 weeks ago

just a note ... but i like when people wind up with 1.5 to 2.5 inch groups ... being as that is what i wind up with for my lowly humble no-respect plinking loads ...

and ..

after 35 years of reading the best methods here in the CBA reports ... and absorbing a lot of it ...

i can usually get my first loads to be within that 1.5 to 2.5 range ...... heh .. that is real progress from my 1955 efforts... thank you CBA ...

ken

of course, when there is only really one rule ( bullet fit ) even me, a lowly farm boy ... can memorize that ...  

 

 

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