M1 Carbine

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  • Last Post 20 February 2021
Wineman posted this 15 February 2021

Last year at the Western Games, I participated in the M1 Carbine match. Shooting Remington green and white box fmj at 100 yards the rifle was shooting very low. My solution was to set the sight on 300 (adjustable sight) and hold top of black on the SR-1. Shot a middling 303/400 (forgot during rapid sitting to hold top of black :-(.

Anyway it inspired me to get it shooting closer to the sights. I whipped up a batch of Hornaday 100 grain SJ with 15.4 grains WW296 and 311359 @ 309" with 13.5 grains WW296, both with CCI 400's. Interesting results. The heavier cast going slower shoots higher than the lighter half jacketed bullet. I guess in revolvers, that is usually the case, did not expect it in the carbine. Shooting off the bench at 25 yards all groups looked very nice, but at 100 things of course open up. My best groups were four inches with the half jacketed load, sight on 300 and a fat line of white (not a very precise sight picture). The carbine is set up properly: nothing is loose, the action hangs off the recoil lug, it has a bayonet band and pot belly M2 stock, with a good crown and muzzle. Definitely need more groups before I start messing with filing the front sight.

One slight issue that gives me pause was with the 311359 twice in 15 rounds the empty gets about 2/3's out of the chamber and then traps the next round in line. Every other case, and all of the half jacketed (and RP factory) are flung over my head and 10' behind me. The cases looked fine so I'm at a loss as to what happened. I weighed all of the charges, but there might have been a couple of rounds that had slightly different seating feel, maybe not as tight as the rest, but not fall out of the case loose either.

Any thoughts on shooting low and the odd extraction of two cases are welcomed.

Enjoy your Holiday.

Dave

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RicinYakima posted this 15 February 2021

When I was shooting in the Carbine Matches in the '90's, one of the cast bullet issues was excess bullet lube in the chamber and on the tappet. Grease is basically non-compressible, so dirty chambers cause a lot of drag on case extraction. Also, excess fouling from bullet lube can build up under the extractor, then the pressure from the magazine pushes the fired case up and it slips off the claw. The other, but less common issue is grease/powder fouling build up on the tappet. While mostly self cleaning, especially with dirty powder like 296, it can happen.

None of us shooting the carbine ever figured out the POA verse POI problems. My only suggestion is to pick a load and file the sight for you sight picture. Have several spares, as just taking everything out of the stock makes them shift. Kind of like dating blonde teenage girls, everything varies by the day.  FWIW

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John Alexander posted this 15 February 2021

Any advice on redheads?

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 15 February 2021

interesting about the 30 carbine ..  mine never stuck with the 31108 and old classic lyman black and 4227 loads ...

anyway i am putting together a ruger 44 mag ... they use the short piston stroke also, and waiting for my shop to warm up, i read everything i can find on these ... most warn against cast bullets gluing them shut, but some say no problem and think trouble comes from too much lube ... not so much lead itself clogging the gas port ... hole ...

cool ! i got a challenge .... thanks to youse guys here, i know i can get by with almost no lube ... or even just dry moly coat ... or fer shurre that new fangled plastique coating stuff ....  

oh ... anybody here used cast in the ruger 44 short stroke rifle ? ...

ken

 

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RicinYakima posted this 15 February 2021

John, Never turn your back on a Redhead. You never know if she is going to hug you, hit you or run away. Ric

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Bud Hyett posted this 16 February 2021

Never turn your back on a Redhead. You never know if she is going to hug you, hit you or run away,

I've always had an affectation for redheads. Ambrose Pierce said you never get past your first love, you merely transfer your first love onward.

My first dog was an Irish Setter. 

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Wineman posted this 16 February 2021

Yes my advice on RH for sure is the same as Ric's. I don't think I fired enough rounds (15 cast) to lube or powder foul but you never know... The Carbine has been in the family for a long time. My dad got it from the DCM for a NRA membership circa 1962. It got the sporter treatment in the 70's and back to military around 2008. I put new USGI springs in it at the same time. I have not shot it much, too many other shiny things to attend to. My go to powder had always been Hercules/Alliant 2400 but H110 and WW296 seem to get the nod most of the time these days so I went with WW296. I would like to go with the cast load, as projectiles will always be in supply (try finding some 110grain SP, FMJ or plated bullets today), just have to figure out the FTE issue. Maybe adjust the taper crimp a bit, not sure. I was not using USGI magazines as here in CA, the 15's might be an issue. That said, they ran just fine. More work for sure.

When I had a Ruger Deerstalker, I used all jacketed, both 240 grain and some of the 265 grain for the 444 Marlin. As I recall, I also used Hercules 2400, but 45+ year memories are a bit fuzzy. Had a 2.5X weaver on it post reticle. Shot just fine, but the only time I used it deer hunting, all the shots were 200 yards or more. I know Elmer Kieth did some amazing work farther out, but I was not comfortable with the 44 mag at that distance.

Dave

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Boschloper posted this 16 February 2021

I once went to Brawley to visit a red haired girl. 

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Mudhen463 posted this 16 February 2021

My Postal Meter shoots to point of aim at 100 yards with the Lyman 110 grain cast/gas check pointed bullet using 13.5 grs WW296. With this load I'm getting 1920 fps. This is an accurate load. Also the barrel was made by Buffalo Arms in 1943. Supposedly this make of barrel was the most inaccurate of all the barrels, but it sure shoots cast bullets very well. I have not had a problem with leading or lube.

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pcmacd posted this 17 February 2021

I shot my first highpower match with 30 Carbine handloads.  Lot #1:  110 grn FMJ Remington bullets, if I can believe my records.  14.1 gr 296, TOL 1.688", said to be around 1900 fps... I had no chrono back then.

 If I had a do-over I'd use 2400 or AA#9 for propellant.  Lots less abrupt on ignition.  But the 296/110 is surely ok, esp. in a rifle.  Handguns are another story.

That match qualified me to buy the first of my three Garands!

I can't recall my score, but I was truly surprised at how high it was. I've never considered mesef a crack shot, no.

When I run across the paper again I am going to scan it into my computer so I can find the damn thing when I want to?????

At any rat, I've shot the LEE 110 grain gas check bullet with around the same amount/kind of propellant as noted above.  It shot to around 1/8 minute of torso (I'm not lying here, 3" or so groups offhand at 100 yards), and around the same point of aim as my Remington and Speer 110 grain bullets. 

I cast the LEE bullets rather hard with range salvage and foundry type (FT).  I cast these so long ago that my records are not coherent (I had not quite nailed down my record keeping in the early nineties), but they had LOTS of FT in them, and they were HARD. 

They were REALLY hard. Approaching the end of the Saeco scale, probably around 20 or 22 BNH, but that is just an estimate based upon other bullets I cast with similar proportions of ingredients a bit later, whose records are more substantial.

Sure.  Around 22 BNH.  That's kinda hard for a cast bullet.

Magma blue lube, Hornady gas checks.  Star 0.309 sizer die.  They rocked.  And rocked, and rocked.

Did I mention?  Same point of aim as my Remington projectiles with the same load of W296 behind them?

No weasy peasy light pistol powder loads for me, no suh, neighbor.

23 years ago I made my last 30 carbine loads. I can't believe it is that long ago, but hand written records do not lie, my friends.  I've still got around 600 moly coated Sierras and aplenty brass, and boats full of 296 or H110 pulldown.

My young daughters really loved that carbine.  A step up from the Model 60SS Marlin 22LR.

We used to play a game of never letting a soda can stop moving before you hit it again.  That made for crack shots for my kids.

If somebody really wants to know the lead formula, I can look again.

I just can't believe I have been doing this stuff for around half of my life.

I shall pass on with so many more weapons than my heirs will be able to deal with.

Ever time I buy a weapon these days, I call it "Punishing my heirs."

LOL!!!

...

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Wineman posted this 17 February 2021

My wife is a Redhead, so I know the drill.

The 30 Carbine was the first cartridge that I reloaded. Sometime around 1972 or 1973. Shooting times still used that newspaper quality pages vs. the glossy stuff of later years. I had 10 years of NRA magazines (ah the really good old days...) and this M1 Carbine. Got a Lee Loader and discovered that FULL length sizing was required. WTH!  (nobody used the F word like they do today) Well after three plastic mallets and and ruining a really nice piece of maple that should have been a lamp body (Thanks end of year HS wood shop, ah the the really good old days...) I made some reloads. Old school Hercules 2400 (with yellow flakes after firing) and Speer, Hornady and Sierra bullets I was able to make something that would shoot and not as my parents said, "put out your eye". The LL gave way to an RCBS JR press. A M1917 Enfield, Ruger Deerstalker, Ruger M77 (7x57) and a H&R 22 Hornet joined the stable and the M1 Carbine got a Fajen stock, and D&T for the sheet metal Nurmich "scope mount" (half in the dovetail, with a brass deflector) and a 2.5 Weaver Scope. Decided to hit the college trail in 1976 and the guns just did not fit. Dad sold most of them but the M1917, Carbine and RR M1911 45 Auto (which he added target sights to) he kept. Somehow in the early 2,000's it all came back and missing all those years with good eyes really hurts (drats). Sorry Ric, I missed all those years in the Yakima Valley (1987-2000) to get all your knowledge and expertise.

All the great stories about the fun little Carbine are just fantastic. Sitting around the fire listening to Audie Murphy talk about plinking Axis foes (he probably wouldn't do that) with a glass of Johnny Walker would round out the evening.

Thanks for all the help and the stories.

Dave

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Eddie Southgate posted this 18 February 2021

Any advice on redheads?

 

Give them my address .

Grumpy Old Man With A Gun......Do Not Touch .

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bushranch posted this 20 February 2021

Ken - In the 70's I shot a lot of cast through a Ruger semi auto .44 Mag . It worked fine with Lyman 429421 usual seating and about 18 grains of that era 2400 . With that bullet and OAL magazine capacity was reduced by one round. Alloy was ww's and lube was black Lyman of the times. Carbine twist is for shorter bullets but was not a problem. Basic cleaning only. 

Downside for me at the time was recovering fired brass that was lost and .44 cases were difficult to source .

Rus

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99 Strajght posted this 20 February 2021

Anybody ever try Accurate 5744 or 2015. I have both powers but can not find any loading data for the 30 Carbine.

Thank You

Glenn

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Wineman posted this 20 February 2021

Glenn,

I have only used Herc/Al 2400, H110/WW296 and 10B101 (surplus flake powder about Blue Dot/Herco speed). No experience with Ac 2015 in any caliber.

Lee's book lists the following for XMP 5744. All the loads had lower velocity and higher pressures than did H110.

BulletWT         Start         Do Not Exceed

100 gr Jacket 13.5c         15,5c

110 gr Jacket   13.0         14.5c

120 gr cast      12.1         13.5c

Its pretty bulky so several compressed loads (c).

I tried 20 gr of Ac 5744 (recently purchased) in a 30-06 with 311299's and Saeco 315's (all pretty hard, quenched WW and Lino) but I was only able to get shotgun patterns vs 16 gr of Al2400 or 28 gr of Varget. Kind of disappointing. I have not tried it in anything else although the 7.62x39 might be a good candidate?

Dave

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