Ladle Casting

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  • Last Post 19 April 2022
Wm Cook posted this 16 April 2022

This isn't intended to be a grand "how to" into ladle casting.  I just wanted to share a few observations hoping that someone could recommend how I can improve from where I am right now.

By now you know I'm new to cast accuracy and although I've been casting for decades its only in the past year that I focused on shooting small cast groups with a long gun.  Prior to that all of my casting has been with #2 Lyman's and various bottom pour Lyman furnaces.  Two inch groups from a lever gun at 50 yards was fine by me. 

When I started to focus on accuracy I knew the day would come when I would have to start ladle casting with Linotype.  From the git go I was happy with how things went.  But when I switched to longer casting sessions and my molds started to include multiple cavity molds and molds of different material things got complicated.

Properly ladle casting bullets that are good enough to compete in CBA competition seems to have as many nuances as any other aspect of cast accuracy.  So I though I would ask for input from others about some of the methods I'm fell into using to see if I'm on the right track.  Again, no expert here.  Just a rookie learning as he goes.  And some of this is probably so basic that its a waste of your time to read but I guess I had to verbalize it to those more knowledgeable than I hoping for feedback. 

Accuracy work has been done with a .308 bolt gun in the bullet weights between 200 and 220 grains.  Everything is with off the shelf Linotype from RotoMetal.  Equipment was a Lyman 10lb dipper and a standard Lyman dipper.  I tried the RotoMetal smaller 2 1/4" casting ladle but it was a little big for the 10lb pot, however the concept of the RotoMetal ladle seems solid.  Since I was only dealing with a single cavity 220 grain mold I just stuck with the old Lyman ladle I had sitting around for nearly 30 years.

The following describes the method that I used on a single cavity brass 220 grain mold from Accurate.  Alloy temp was kept at 750 degrees and the mold was kept as close to 345 as possible.  I know 750 is way hot but I had just read Mr Barber's article in the last FS and I was quite taken by it.  Cadence for the alloy to set up was 20 seconds.  So here is my method and I was hoping you could comment on. 

First tap the ladle clean (bowl and spout) before each dip.  Before dipping, clear the alloy surface by pawing the alloy with the tip of the ladle spout below the alloy surface.  That seemed to keep the spout hot and clean for the pour.  Then without raising the ladle snout from the melt push it under the surface and come up horizontal with the ladle level full.  I held the mold canted to allow runoff and pour the alloy through the sprue plate hole slightly offset.  With the mold canted I continued the slow pour allowing the runoff to continue until the alloy formed a flat puddle over the sprue hole.  I continued to pour above the sprue hole so that excess alloy was available for heat shrinkage so as to suck into the cavity for proper base fill.

I'm sure cadence is determined by the quality of the sprue cut and adjustments will have to be made on a mold by mold basis.  In this case it was 20 seconds if the mold was kept at 345 degrees.  I got a step higher on the learning curve when I sorted out how critical maintaining the mold temperature was.  Keeping a consistent mold temperature is dependent upon alloy temp, mold temp, mold material, # of cavities but it seems to me that its real important to manage the mold temperature in order to keep a constant cadence for for a quality sprue cut.

To date most of my casting seemed to work best with the mold at 345 degrees.  And keeping the mold at that temperature was pretty hard when you have alloy cascading over the mold.  With any overflow on a two cavity iron mold the temperature could quickly climb over 400 degrees.  That produces smearing or a super long extended cadence for it to set up.  Using a wet sponge didn't seem to work for me.  If the mold was overheated the sponge could cool down the mold so the outside would be back in the 345 range but the internal cavity temperature was still super heated and smearing would continue.

But like everything else about casting If you know what you are doing I am sure that controlling the mold temperature can be done that way.  And now I understand why some folks run two molds at the same time.  But that would be too complicated for me.  Keeping an eye on the second hand of my clock for cadence takes all of the brain power I have available.

The only way I could keep things copacetic was to rest the mold on a wooden block with the cavities empty and the mold open.  I'm sure the time needed for the cool down in order to keep the mold at 345 will vary based on mold material, number of cavities and how much overflow has to occur to keep the bullet base filled out.  For the brass single cavity brass mold I was using 23 seconds worked. 

Today's session was short and I only dropped about 85 bullets from the single cavity mold.  I'm thinking that's not a bad quantity to shoot for if you're looking for high end accuracy with cast bullets.  I'm a little under gunned if I were feeding a 9mm or a 7.62 x 39 with the 10 lb pot and the anal approach to casting I just described.  On a positive not of the 85 that were dropped I culled 5 and the rest were all +/- .2 grains. 

About cascading alloy over the mold and back into the pot.  Leaving the mold level and leaving a tall puddle like bottom pouring just didn't fill out my bases.  When I cascaded the alloy by keeping a flat hot puddle on top of the cavity it kept the bases filled out.

About mold temperature soaring.  As an example my two cavity Lyman 311299 iron mold would soar from 345 to over 400 degrees in just two or three drops.  But with a cool down period of 18 seconds the mold temperature would stabilize and the sprue cut was consistent. I want to give a big thanks to Loren Barber for the article he wrote in the last FS.  I had just retired by best shooting mold which was a nearly 30 year old two cavity Lyman because I couldn't control the heat.  When I read now he just used it as a single cavity I gave it another try and the mold became very manageable with nicely filled out bases.  I recently dropped another 80 bullets out of that the they were all +/- .3 grains. 

About tapping a mold to help fill out the base; I may be an exception but the weight of the bullets with the mold tapped and not tapped swung almost 3 grains and the nose diameter grew .0008".  Nice to know you can effect bullet size but with all of the other variables I have to juggle to cast accurate bullets it was more than I wanted to take on.  But again, good to know.  If I have a situation where I need another .0003 on the bullet diameter I'll have to see if I can control that variable. 

Thanks for listening to my whining.  Hope I didn't offend anyone.  Bill

 

 

 

Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a delay tactic.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 April 2022

good stuff ... i wonder if you could reduce your pot alloy temp about 50 degrees ... just for test ...   also your thermometer might be off anyway ...

with your 30 cal 230 gr single cavity you should be able to get about 2 throws a minute, not hurrying.

my ladle technique is close to yours ... alloy on hot side, pour a good excess wad on the sprue, wait 3 or 4 seconds for spue freeze ... after sprue freezes, count to 3 ... or 4 ... and slide plate cutter open with pressure against mold ...  

i pour again immediately after dumping castings, ... if it takes more than 3-4 seconds for sprue to freeze, i first slow down a tad, then next i lower pot temp.  i don't have much luck using my lyman thermometer, i go by spue freezing time .

hope this helps, sounds like you got it about right ....   ken

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delmarskid posted this 16 April 2022

Good stuff here. I’m curious as to how you measure the temperature of your mold.

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John Alexander posted this 16 April 2022

Excellent thread so far and should get better if we get some posts on casting by folks who fill their molds from the bottom of the pot.

Bill's discovery that tapping the mold can lead to larger diameter bullets is something I don't remember every hearing. At my age I can't say that about many things I read about casting or shooting.  That might be just what is needed for shrinking groups in situations where a bit more diameter is needed

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RicinYakima posted this 17 April 2022

I would have hoped that others would have added here, but I guess not. 

1: Never rely on the rheostat on the pot to be even close to accurate. My RCBS varies 25* from off to on, and my Lee 200*! Buy an accurate thermometer or use a PID.

2: I have always cast my match bullets from Lin-o-type at 705*, which is plenty hot for an iron mould. Most success was with a single or double cavity Lyman #311284.

3: Your pot is too hot if you have slag floating on the top, you are just burning off tin unless your fluxing is not working.

4: I tilt the mould end down and pour a full Ideal ladle into the cavity and let the rest run back into the pot. When I see the metal flash over, I cut the sprue with the heel of my gloved right hand. 

5: Your quality is fine at +/- 0.2 and visual quality is good. Military rifles can't shoot better than that. 

6: I try to cast 200 for a group for the National Matches. After sorting for visual errors, the heaviest 120 become target bullets, the rest foulers and sighters. 

7: Loading process and skills are as important as good bullets. You have good dies and presses and OAL data?

HTH, Ric

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Shuz posted this 18 April 2022

I have been casting boolits from a bottle pour pot for over 50 years and have been very happy with the results. Can someone explain to me the advantages in using a ladle to pour boolits?

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 April 2022

Shuz  ...  for me, the ladle method is mostly nostalgic ... i started in 1956 with a ladle .. then in 1958 went to a Potter bottom feeder ... then a couple Lee bottom drips, then about 2005 went to a Lyman pot and ladle ...  

all worked fine, results the same ... techniques almost the same ... i still leave an extra glob of hot lead on the sprue holes to insure base fill ... 

both methods are messy, but at least with the ladle, it is MY mess, not a constant battle with the drips ...  the *drips* is a very minor nuisance, but hemorrhoid creme hasn't helped ...  fiddling with the valve rod stops the drips for a while ...

that said, if i were casting a lot of bullets at a session, i would go bottom dripper ...   the last 25 years i mostly cast 50 or 100 for plinking then go to another gun.  the ladle is less startup and cleanup .

just some thoughts ... ken

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RicinYakima posted this 18 April 2022

1: you can cast at a lower temperature

2:  ladle nozzle in the cutter hole for well filled bases on picky moulds

3: no dripping or splashing around pot

4. no clogged nipple

5: just as fast if using a single cavity mould (most of mine)

That is off the top of my head. HTH, Ric

 

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Shuz posted this 18 April 2022

Is there a rough draft feature to this website? I just typed a response to this thread and in a senior moment, hit the wrong button on my phone and lost " my epistle "!!😂

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RicinYakima posted this 18 April 2022

If I'm going to write something long, I do it as a Word Document and then copy and paste into the reply square. HTH, Ric

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Wm Cook posted this 19 April 2022

if you could reduce your pot alloy temp about 50 degrees ... just for test ...   also your thermometer might be off anyway ...

You're right Ken. Running a high temp just seems wrong from the git go.  But Loren's article and the weight tolerance he held at 750 swept me off my feet.  But you have to understand that I get attracted to bright lights, loud noises etc. I kind of stick with 700 because I have so many other variables to manage that alloy blend and temperature is still in the wings.

Sometimes I add tweaks that aren't worth the effort and times I add equipment that's just complicates the task. But I think I'll always keep the clock and its sweep second hand.  That and the digital probe for temperature checks on mold and alloy. And I am falling head over heels in love with single cavity molds. 

I’m curious as to how you measure the temperature of your mold.

Delmar, I use a digital thermometer.  I keep a surface contact on the primary and a probe (for alloy) on the secondary.  It adds more stuff to manage while casting and maybe I'll get there some day to do without but I'm not there yet. 

Your pot is too hot if you have slag floating on the top, you are just burning off tin unless your fluxing is not working.

Rick, thank you very much.  That saved me a future headache.  I knew there had to be a reason why I was feeling guilty. I'm covered on reloading hardware, bench equipment, handloading and bench discipline.  Or at least I pretend I am.  X jacketed BR shooter. 

the mold can lead to larger diameter bullets is something I don't remember every hearing.

John this was a shocker when I saw it.  For now lets assume it was a fluke and it can't be repeated. If this was a common issue others would have picked it up.  I'll repeat with ten or twenty drops the next time I cast. 

When I sorted the cast I was blown away by the spread (213.7 to 216.5).  No fins or anything.  Bullets looked good. The next day I cast the same mold and everything fell in the 213.7 to 214.1.  The only thing that was different (as far as I can tell) is that if I remembered to tap the mold I did so.  Uneven tapping at that. Sometimes I banged it sometime I tapped it.  I didn't even know I had the spread until after I had finished.  It has to be me. 

Ladle versus bottom pour: From my seat it seems like the weight spread is tighter with ladle casting. It has more moving parts than a bottom pour but in the brief time I've been working on cast accuracy I think I can produce a more consistent bullet with a ladle.  If I were casting in volume and if the casting didn't require accuracy I'd go with my bottom pour.  At the end of the day it may be six of one, half dozen of another.  I'm sticking with ladle for the time being. 

Cast accuracy is light years more interesting than jacketed.  To me shooting an agg is the .7's and .8's must be as hard as shooting jacketed in the mid teens.  Thanks for all of the advice.  Bill Cook.

 

 

 

Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a delay tactic.

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