IT IS A PUZZLEMENT

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  • Last Post 23 February 2017
joeb33050 posted this 06 February 2017

This, my second attempt to find 22cf accuracy, started in January of 2013. I ended up last summer with a Striker in 22-250 and Savage rifle barrels in 22-250 and 223 that would shoot either 225415 or 225646M around 1.5” averages of five 5 shot 100 yard groups.  I started shooting jacketed bullets at cast bullet velocities last summer.

The cast loads started to shoot wildly in the fall, and continued to today.

Now, with cast bullets,  I get BIG groups, if any, with the Striker, 3 Savage barrels and a Shilen barrel in 22-250, and a Savage HV 223 barrel. I've checked everything several times, cleaned the barrels, found almost no copper fouling, checked scopes and everything else I can think of. My alloy is ~ linotype. Thinking it was my bullets/alloy/casting, today I shot bullets cast by GP Idaho. The Saeco 60 gr bullet went into 9 7/8", 5 1/2" and 7 1/2"; The Bator bullet went into 6 1/8” and 9 1/2". This with the Shilen barrel on a Savage M10, which averaged .925” for 5 groups on last Friday with jacketed bullets.

I've never had anything like this happen before, and am about out of ideas. It ain't me or the rest or the guns or the bullets or the cases or the primers or the scopes or the powder.

What causes such WILD shooting?

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frnkeore posted this 06 February 2017

Joe,

Get the best copper fouling cleaner you can find. For copper fouling only. Sweets is a good one, been around for at least 40 years but, there are others. If you don't want to spend the money for one of those, run a patch of straight ammonia through the barrel and clean with water, dry and oil.

Think about it, you've only done one thing different! 

Frank

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giorgio the slim one posted this 06 February 2017

Are the barrel twits compatible with your bullets?

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David Reiss posted this 06 February 2017

Joe,

I recently read an article written in the FS during the 80s and the author had a similar issue. He resolved the issue by switching from linotype to WW + 2% sb and let the bullets air cool. He was able to achieve velocities in the 2400 fps range using a Lyman 225415 gas checked bullet and then a little heavier bullet (which I can't remember the details) to the same results with no leading. If you need me to reference the article & issue details I can go back and look it up.

David

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
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Bud Hyett posted this 06 February 2017

Very slightly lap the barrel to remove fouling; concentrate in the leade and work slowly making sure it is shiny. Both cartridges are over-bore capacity and will leave carbon fouling in the leade. To hold their accuracy,.several .22-.250's that I have owned required thorough cleaning after only fifteen or twenty shots. 

My Striker started life as a.308 Win. and had the same problem sets. When re-barreled to 6 mm BR, the gunsmith squared the action. There was .015 extra metal on the port side which was pushing the barrel starboard as it heated. You might want to also check squareness of the bolt face and action face to the barrel threads.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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SierraHunter posted this 06 February 2017

In my experience I've always gotten better accuracy with a bullet softer then lino type. Something around 16 bhn.

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45 2.1 posted this 06 February 2017

What causes such WILD shooting?

 

Linotype wears barrel throats fairly fast. Do you know what size, shape and how the bullet fits barrels throat?

Typically, undersize for the throat and hard bullets do these things........................................

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Mike H posted this 06 February 2017

I would check my powder scales,a few tenths of a grain of powder extra most likely wouldn't affect the jacketed bullets,but it will throw cast bullets.

Mike.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 07 February 2017

georgio:

barrel TWITS ... hah dang i think you got it perfect ...

i am proud to be on the barrel twits team ... charter member...

thank you

ken

hey i spent a month in spain ... using my high school spanish .... got laughed at a lot ...

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 07 February 2017

joe:

did you shoot jacketed in all the barrels that went sour ? .....that may or may not be a clue.

not that i think it is copper fouling ... but if you want a killer copper remover ... pharmacy sells 28 per cent stronger ammonia ...  no screwing around with that stuff ... don't sniff it : could be terminal .... but it will boil out copper ...

if it is powder glazing, it wouldn't show up on copper tests ... use ed's acetone red and then put some 280 grit i sent on a brush and give it 30 passes ... won't hurt barrel but you might have to re-condition it with 20 cast bullets .  hard to believe 4 barrels all powder glazed at same time   ... but ???

i feel your pain, but something to be learned here ...

ken

 

 

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Mike H posted this 07 February 2017

I am too far away to be any help,in that I may observe the rifle and the loading,however I believe that something has changed to a serious degree.I would doubt that the inaccuracy is caused by copper fouling,I don't know how Joe cleans his barrels,but if he uses a bronze brush and solvent the amount of copper and carbon fouling should not cause the inaccuracies shown.Certainly this is  puzzle.I might be beating a broken drum but I would still eliminate powder charge differences.

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joeb33050 posted this 07 February 2017

Joe,

Get the best copper fouling cleaner you can find. For copper fouling only. Sweets is a good one, been around for at least 40 years but, there are others. If you don't want to spend the money for one of those, run a patch of straight ammonia through the barrel and clean with water, dry and oil.

Think about it, you've only done one thing different! 

Frank

 

When I buy a Savage take-off barrel, I clean it with Hoppes #9 until the patches come out clean; there's sometimes a lot of blue/green, sometimes it takes several weeks to get the copper out. Swab, let it sit for ~12 hrs, swab, let it...I have Hoppe's # 9 and CLP. I went out this morning to search the 3 local = within 25 miles gun shops, and the only thing I found was Remington 40X bore cleaner. I brought it  home, followed the directions that told me to swab with it until clean patches. 10 strokes wet batch, do it again. At first the horrible black stuff made me think the barrel was dirty, but after more than 20 patches = > 200 passes, the last patch was as black as the first. Cleaned with Hoppes, 3rd patch clean, oiled and put away the barrel. I put some remstuff on a patch, rubbed it on some channel lock pliers and the patch was black. Rubbed the remstuff patch on a Ken C. nose punch, steel, and the patch was black. This Remington 40X stuff will NEVER produce a clean patch, no matter how man gallons you buy and use. Screwn again.

A new Savage take-off barrel arrived as I was typing this, let's see if the Hoppe's works.

 JUST PUSHED A HOPPES-SOAKED PATCH THROUGH AT 2 PM, PATCH CAME OUT CLEAN.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 07 February 2017

joeb :  black patches

yes the cleaner/abrasive is black from the barrel steel .... no problem, once you find that out ( g ) ... the good news is it also really does clean your barrel .... which is the goal .  remclean is a valuable tool ...

truly a case for holmes ...   sherlock holms ...

ken

 

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John Carlson posted this 08 February 2017

When it comes to copper my best results have been with KG-12.  Not ammonia based, pretty much odor free, does not damage the barrel if left too long.  Copper turns the patch brown instead of blue.  The only place I've found it is from the gunsmith at Scheels.

John Carlson. CBA Director of Military Competition.

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John Alexander posted this 09 February 2017

Joe,

I am as puzzled as everybody else but second the idea that you should try softer bullets if you haven't yet.

John

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OU812 posted this 09 February 2017

The soft alloy will bump and form better when shot. Not perfectly, but better than linotype will allow.

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joeb33050 posted this 14 February 2017

Bought a new-to-me nice-looking Striker barrel in 22-250, cleaned it and all patches came out clean, put it on the Striker, loaded Dogtown 55 gr jacketed 8/SR4756 and 225646 M cast 7.5/Titegroup and shot yesterday, 100 yards, 5 shot groups. In order shot;

Cast; 1.35", 2.25", 1.55"; avg 1.717"

Jacketed; 2.2", 1.35", 1.0", .85", avg. 1.350"

The cast groups, while far from great,  are better than I've been able to shoot in several months.

I think the barrel will shoot jacketed around 1” or better.

The barrel might have been new, after ~4 hours a bit of green on a patch, after ~ 9 hours another bit of green-this after shooting 29 jacketed bullets.

Maybe the curse is ending.

joe b. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 15 February 2017

joeb : ............ i believe you have stumped this panel ....

ken

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Mike H posted this 15 February 2017

joeb : ............ i believe you have stumped this panel ....

ken

Maybe Joe has,on the internet,I am sure if a few of the members here were able to be present at the time of loading and shooting,someone would be able to solve the matter.

Mike.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 16 February 2017

hi mike ... ha. congratulations !! ... i pride myself on having a smarty-pants answer for any question or situation ... but for this one i just break down into giggles and drooling ...

i can't get past the mental image of 44 past national champions out at the range looking over joeb's shoulder and as per a tv reality show, as their suggestions fail to improve those weird groups, they one-by-one have to get in their pick-ups and go home ...

i do  * hope * that there exists an answer, but i may not * expect * a resolvement ...  i do wish we had the resources to figure this out .

i guess one consolation is that this ...so far ... wins the prize for the biggest puzzle of the last several years ...

ken

 

 

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joeb33050 posted this 16 February 2017

2/15/17 223 Rem, M12 Savage, Iffland HV barrel, Lyman STS 30X, 100 yards

225646M nose sized, 7.5/Titegroup, 20 shots in ~ 17"

Hornady VMAX, 7.5 Titegroup, 2.1", 1.45", 1.8, 2.9, 1.95 ; avg 2.04"

This barrel should be a 9” twist, per Savage. I figured out that Savage has to mark the twist on barrels, asked, and got a reply. The barrel is marked “M", = 9” twist. The 225646M is .692” long, Greenhill minimum twist = 11". The 55 VMAX is .815” long, Greenhill minimum = 9.2". Thjs barrel has shot 225646M ~ 1.5” avg with IMR4895 55 VMAX < 1” avg with IMR4227-both at much higher velocities.

I'm beginning to suspect that both the 223 and 22-250 with Titegroup and lower velocities, are on the ragged edge of stability, shooting better in summer. And, that lack of stability is NOT signaled by tipping-some tipping bullets shoot accurately, some non-tippers shoot wildly.

On to higher velocities.

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John Alexander posted this 16 February 2017

Joe,

If that is the barrel that I sent to you after Pat gave it to me I think it is 12” twist.  When Pat gave me that barrel the first thing I did was check the twist to see if it was a 9” which I needed because I was shooting bullets .9” long.  Unless my memory is completely haywire it was not a 9” twist.  I think it was 12".

Use a tight patch and a longitudinal mark on the rod and see for yourself.

John

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joeb33050 posted this 16 February 2017

Joe,

If that is the barrel that I sent to you after Pat gave it to me I think it is 12” twist.  When Pat gave me that barrel the first thing I did was check the twist to see if it was a 9” which I needed because I was shooting bullets .9” long.  Unless my memory is completely haywire it was not a 9” twist.  I think it was 12".

Use a tight patch and a longitudinal mark on the rod and see for yourself.

John

 

John;

I went to the workroom and checked the twist three times, getting from 13” to 14". Back, lunch, to the net. Savage catalogs 1 rifle at 7", most at 9", 2 at 9.5", 2 at 10” and several N/A.

Back to the shop, went through the practice routine 4 times cleaned/dried the barrel and THEN got 13 1/2", 13 13/16” and 13 1/4"-- this with patches as tight as possible and still allowing movement.

This barrel accurately shoots .7” bullets, Greenhill min 10.8", .815” bullets, Greenhill min 9.3"--at low mv. 

Checked the barrel, which has a code of “M” = 9” twist.

Either my measuring, or the code letter, or Greenhill is way off. I've suspected home twist measurement since I spent hours on a Striker getting widely varied results for twist. 

I've got 60 and 68 gr jacketed bullets, and will put the twist to the test, but I'm stuck on 9” for now.

joe b. 

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joeb33050 posted this 22 February 2017

I took the Iffland 223 bbl off the M12, put on the new Shilen 22-250 bbl.

Today, 2/22/17, older harder 225646M, 7.5/Titegroup, no detectable groups in 15 shots.

Thinking the bullets were too hard, I had cast softer bullets with Tim T. alloy,

Today, 2/22/17, newer softer 225646M, 7.5 Titegroup, ne detectable groups in 20 shots.

After 35 cb shots, not cleaned, Hornady 55 gr VMAX, 7.5 Titegroup, 4 shots to get scope settings right, then 5 in .6", 100 yards.

It is a puzzlement.

Is there anyone willing to try these cast bullets?

joe b.  

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Mike H posted this 23 February 2017

What is the velocity of the offending loads?

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