Is this the new norm?

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John Alexander posted this 2 weeks ago

The current Am. Rifleman contains a five page report titled "A 21st Century Rimfire" touting a new Winchester variant of their 22 rimfire autoloader the "Wildcat 22 SR" as a challenger to the Ruger 10-22. It features a threaded muzzle, a skeleton plastic stock, and is compatible  with 25 round magazines.

The text was very detailed about construction and functioning but not a word written about accuracy.  To their credit, the report did give the usual AR table of accuracy results. Five 5-shot groups of three varieties of ammunition from benchrest averaged 3.16 minutes of angle.  The best ammo averaged 2.64 moa.

I am curious about the reactions, if any, of our forum members to this report and rifle?

John

 

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Ross Smith posted this 2 weeks ago

eh

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ray h posted this 2 weeks ago

Next year I will have been a Life Member for 50 years. Sadly now I skim thru the magazine and may read one article ,sometimes two before I throw the magazine away. It seems to me that every company is in a race to build the cheapest and most ugly gun. As for accuracy, the bean counters could care less.

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JeffinNZ posted this 2 weeks ago

Do we believe magazine review results?

Cheers from New Zealand

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

That has been the "norm" for about 20 years. Even in the 1990's guys would bring their $400 (in 1995 dollars) 10/22's with all the accessories to BR-50 matches. None were competitive with even the cheapest 1950's target rifles. 

Wood stocks and classically styled stocks only sell to old people and boomers, who are now less than half the population. 

Shooting fast sells 22's, always has and always will.

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Shopdog posted this 2 weeks ago

Maybe their staff can't shoot?

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Idahocaster posted this 2 weeks ago

I have a 60 year old Remington 514 (cheap bolt action single shot) that can manage 2 moa with most ammo using the original open sights. That suits me just fine. I don't need to shoot fast. Maybe that's why I prefer revolvers over semiautomatics too?

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sluggo posted this 2 weeks ago

With the current ammo prices revolvers and single shot rifles just might become popular again. I think that in turn would promote more accurate shooting by the spray and pray crowd.

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BigMan54 posted this 2 weeks ago

I must have what is a very Rare 10/22. Bought new in 1975,

IT IS ACCURATE. It'll group 10 shots under an inch at 50yrds.

So I've never felt the need of another detachable magazine  .22, and have a bunch of others anyway. 

Never been one to blast away. So a new .22 auto rifle is not on My list. Never bought into the bells & whistles for the 10/22 anyway.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  

These days I always wonder "where was it made and buy who ?"

The AMERICAN RIFLEMAN ?  doesn't have much to offer besides Political stories, 45yrs a Life Member this year. And My donations stopped several years ago. Until wayne la pierre is out, they won't start again. 

Let the kids blast away. I want every shot to count.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 2 weeks ago

The first .22 rifle I ever bought was a Marlin 60 semi-auto at K-Mart for.........$60. From day one it has shot right at 1" at 50 yards and that is with just about any ammo. I own many other .22 rifles, none costing over $250.00 and none of them will keep up with the cheap little Marlin. Actually my Remington 552 Speedmaster comes close, very close. All of my bolt actions stay at or near 2" @ 50 yards.

Maybe they just don't make-um like they used to!

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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lotech posted this 2 weeks ago

It seems accuracy is quite secondary to many nowadays. Some here have questioned the worth (and veracity) of the group testing published in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, but I generally go along with their results. True, it depends on who might be doing the group shooting, but the information they publish on the group sizes is better than none at all. While I didn't find the Winchester .22 appealing in any way, I can say the same about the many 9mm pistols that AR needlessly evaluates and continues to evaluate.

The Winchester .22 writeup is just another example of the serious deterioration that the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN has suffered in the last thirty years regarding quality of content. The AR hasn't had a technical staff or good editor in a long time. I don't see this changing anytime soon. 

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Lee Guthrie posted this 2 weeks ago

My best guesstimate for the type of articles in AR is because the "kids" want go fast, spray and pray, dump it all downrange as fast as possible firearms - rifle or pistol.  My aging brain remembers back in the early 80's getting ahold of an AKM fitted with a drum magazine, then several guys standing next to a fast moving stream, tossing a block of wood in, and seeing how fast we could blow all the water out and turn the wood into splinters.  A few cases of $80 a case cheap chinese or russian ammo pretty much got that "fun" out of our system (that and the smell of the chinese fish oil they greased them with).  That does NOT seem to be the case these days.  Besides, who among us believes the groups that gun writers claim they shoot?

 

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Ed Harris posted this 2 weeks ago

If you really want to vomit watch the youtube video of Wayne's elephant hunt....Disgusting.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Eutectic posted this 2 weeks ago

Yes the new norm.

Made in Turkey. Almost all plastic, got to love those plastic sights, be real careful about throwing it in the back seat of the pick-up!

They don't say anything about changing the barrel. The neat thing about the 10/22 is the easily changeable barrel. Plenty of aftermarket match grade barrels available for your 10/22.

The only thing they got right was it uses 10/22 magazines. 

Steve 

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Lee Guthrie posted this 2 weeks ago

Had not seen that before, and would have preferred to have kept it that way.  You cannot tell whether he can shoot or not from one event, but it would appear that he cannot.  He certainly did not understand WHERE to shoot the animal.  (Also appeared that he violated the rule about "bring enough gun".)  Video recordings are more likely to bite you than help you:  unbelievable that they kept the film rolling while he used it for target practice.  Extremely poor choice of animals to hunt.  What's next, a lion?

WP has been a millstone around the NRA's neck for decades.  Membership doesn't want him, but he's locked in so tight it seems he cannot be removed.

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OU812 posted this 2 weeks ago

All the younger guys I work with are into assault style weapons. Never is there talk of pretty walnut and blueing.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 2 weeks ago

ok, just to break up the pain, i will stick in a snap of a classic .. the remmy 552 ...   btw, i got a few 22rf .. all classics ... although my newest is a 20 year old Taurus 63 .. a reasonable knockoff of a real Win. 63 .. i feel guilty .  to make up for this sin, i also have a Ted Williams /Ithaca 49 ...

i enjoy watching kids testing 22rf ammo on utube .. they fan the trigger for a target, then walk down and exclaim .. " not bad ... a 1 inch group " ... when the target is obviously 4 inches at 50 yards ... 

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alphabrass posted this 2 weeks ago

Interesting that Winchester Firearms is has brought a new .22 rimfire to market after such a long absence in the market.  Perhaps they realized that "brand loyalty" starts with young customers?  I think the last standout .22 that they had was the 9422, and it has been gone a long time now.  Was the last Winchester .22 autoloader the 190/290?  Those were part of a group of rifles that included pump and lever action rifles.  They weren't great classic .22s but no bad either.

Tube magazine .22s are a dying form, victims of the desire for large capacity mags?  Henry and Browning are the only ones left now?  A tube mag is nice; you can have a walks worth of ammo and maintain a sleek, easy to carry profile.

The completion in firearms sales is truly fierce now.  Compare what was available 50 years or more ago to now.  Given the mature nature of firearms it is not surprising that price is a driving force in marketing now.  The Ruger 10/22 sports plastic parts now and the 77/22 has been replaced by the American Rimfire, just a couple of examples.  Plastic guns aren't new, the Nylon 66 has been out of production for 30 years or so?  Many decades ago we had a Stevens "radiator" .22 autoloader with a shiny plastic stock.

There still are some nice .22s out there, the CZs are particularly nice, just wish they would make metal mags available for the newer models.

Just rambling on here.  You get to a certain point and start to think about all of the changes that have happened over you own lifetime.

alphabrass

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barra posted this 2 weeks ago

cry The elephant hunt.

I’ve all ways giving even my most hated pest to be shot more respect than that.

Guess I’m not a hunter...maybe I’m just some weirdo

If an inch at 50 yards is the goal then my new to me 22lr with only three remaining bulges in the abused rifle is golden and I need no further fiddling to get it to shoot any better.

I’ll proudly go forward mostly nearly killing stuff with bad shot placement and you all can tell me how well I done.

 

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Michael S posted this 2 weeks ago

  My favorite and most accurate rifle if my wife is with in ear shot is the Henry lever action  22lr rifle she gave me on our wedding day, 19 year ago this June. It is the entry lvl Henry lever action 22lr they make. My most accurate 22lr platform that I own is my Ruger mark 2 Government Target  6" bull barrel pistol that shots 1/2 at 100 yards in slow fire off hand.  My Marline 60's are accurate to 1" at 100 yards in slow fire off hand. Maybe because their is less weight to hold one hand the pistol is more accurate for me.

  My wife's CZ 457 premier 22lr rifle that we got her last year (because we found a wood stocked rifle and it came with a steel magazine) which also has steel magazines one can buy as accessories though they do sell the plastic magazines for 6.00 cheaper. Is the Finest to shot and is her most accurate 22lr rifle she owns. She has a Leopold on a Marline 60 and on this CZ 457 since it is bare back.

  We own a few of the Ruger 10/22 carbines that our boys have grown up shooting. And while they still shot them the Henry golden boys they won at auction do out shot the 10/22's every day. 

  We find it aggravating that it is so hard to find a gun made with a wood stock and even harder to find a gun with open sights on it now a days. I seriously doubt the new consumer wants a rifle that they have to turn around and spend another couple hundred bucks putting optics on to be able to shot it. But that is what the industry tells us. I do now it is cheaper to make the guns with plastic toilet paper racks on them and no open sights. But those guns are not for us.  But if the option is to have every rifle made cost at least 1000.00 dollars or some starting at 299.99 I would rather there be some GOD ugly guns out their for the new shooters to buy so they get into the sport. Let us with refined taste search the universe for the wood stocked open sight made with quality that will shot 1/2 at 100y .

 

  The spray and pray group do have their use though. When a youngster is watching a group of adults ammo dump a mag and not hit the target. My 6y old son asked me, "why are they wasting their shoots?"  I did let him ammo dump his BT 25 magazine out of his 10/22 the day before his biggest challenge in 2013. He dumped one BT 25 and then shot slow fire for the rest of the day shooting the rest of the 4500 ct rounds that day in slow and aimed shots. He only stopped shooting when his finger was to sore to load any more magazines.

GOD, United States of America, US Marine Corps, Family, Self

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 2 weeks ago

ok, since i have already sneakily grabbed my 3 or 4, lifetime supply already ...

i would be remiss not to mention the last of the secret good buys of 22 classic autos out there ... walnut stock, spiffy buttstock tube magazine, screw-in barrel, ...  and 4 times more accurate than a box 10-22 ...

the genuine real * Winchester 74 * ....  still can be stolen for $135 for a shooter grade  ... about today's price of a box of 22 ammo at a lot of LGS ...

fastest takedown of any 22 auto yet, functionally interesting and beautiful, and easily modified for you modifiers  ( please don't ) ...

ok, some mistakenly think it is ugly in it's simplicity : ( no flash hider or drum magazine )  and the trigger is mushy since it is quaintly mounted in the stock ... just endearing charms ...

there ... last of the 22 auto bargains ... hey ! ...  Custer didn't listen to me either ....

ken

 

 

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mashburn posted this 2 weeks ago

Hello Ken,

You and I have likes for the same kind of old rimfire .22's and yes, the Model 74 Winchester is one of the best, in my opinion.
Do you have a $134.00 model 74 for sale?

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Coydog posted this 2 weeks ago

I am not into the style of 22lr that the AM  have . My first was a Savage Mod 24  22lr/410 and still have it then Henry lever 22lr and bought a Marlin 60 used  and happy with them all beside I use my Ruger single six on the trap line . I did win a H&R Sportsman 22lr at a trappers convention some years ago from Fur Fish Game  that had a raffle and I won it , have not shot it since I got the Ruger .It was also the first gun I won , just clean it 2 times. For now happy with it that way . for how it looks I maybe will not shot that H&R  but will not let it go . Did had offers to buy it from me . Not for sale .  

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sluggo posted this 2 weeks ago

I give Winchester credit for coming out with a new rifle for the shooting public. I hope it keeps young people interested in the shooting sports. Is it for me? No. But I do not think Winchester had me in mind when they designed it. Young people like all the " black rifle options". IE. Scope and light rails etc. I did like the easy access to the action for cleaning. It's what sells now. I saw other reviews where the accuracy was better than the A.R. review. In the 1960's I got a used Remington 66 for a present. I got similar comments about my piece of plastic garbage. I still have it and it is still works fine. My Marlin 39A is still one of my favorites. Hands down my Springfield M2. Is the most accurate .22 I own.

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Bud Hyett posted this 2 weeks ago

Those of us who are retirement age grew up in a different age. Getting and keeping the younger generation interested in shooting is the goal. If this means plastic and scopes, that is the price. Once the new generation is shooting, we need to bring them to more structured matches. The age limitation of 18 years old to buy and possess a firearm is a hidden factor. Many of us started at the age of twelve with the family .22 LR rifle shooting walnut hulls, I started with a Springfield 87 and graduated to an Anschutz 64 sporter. 

Wiith a BSA International and a Redfield 3200 scope shooting off the bags at 100 yards, I get interested shooters stopping to see the setup. I offer them the chance to shoot and some take it. They are amazed at what these rifles can do. Then I mention this is practice for reading wind when shooting prairie dogs at 200 and 300 yards or more. 

Working with new shooters, I work them out to 25 or 50 yards at a range with one shot at a time when asked to help. Emphasis is on consistent hold and reading the wind, many find a new challenge. We as shooters need to work with these people as they are the continuation of our sport.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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alphabrass posted this 2 weeks ago

When I had the privilege of introducing youth to rifle shooting I made a point of not criticizing their rifle, which was usually their prize possession.  I'd work with whatever they had and do what it took for them to have success.  Overly long stock was usually the biggest problem.  Teaching sight picture and trigger squeeze can be done with just about any .22 rifle.  As long as it was safe we'd work with what came.  The goal was for them to want to come back for the next session.  Very, very satisfying to have them enthusiastic and smiling at the end of the session.  So, as has been said in earlier posts, whatever gets them to the range is a good thing and a terrific opportunity to perpetuate our sport.

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RicinYakima posted this 2 weeks ago

Alphabrass, I did this for several years in the 1980's. At the end of the series of classes, I would let them shoot a Marlin Youth target rifle. They almost always shot better and they would ask why. Told them that they could now shoot better than their rifle could.  The next season, several came back with bolt guns, mostly Savage and Marlin. Ric

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