I get hard, shiny black fouling in the end of the chamber neck including back a ways under the case neck. I have been removing it by rotating a makeshift chamber brush made of oversized bronze brushes - but it takes a lot of revolutions. Ed's Red, Hoppes #9, and other "bore cleaners" seem to have no effect on it.
Is there a better way to remove this stuff?
John
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If the solvent is not cutting it you could try loosening it with Kroil. Other than that I would try J-B Bore cleaner on a patch around your oversize brush or maybe a shotgun mop. If you have to abrade it off it will take a lot of work.
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i had a bad case in a shiny new Shilen extra match 22-250 barrel ... i used 4x steel wool on a brass brush ... but it was a pain ... i cured the problem when i asked mr. Ed about it and he sent me a new barrel, didn't even want the old one back. the problem was mid-barrel, probably a loose spot. about 10 shots and the groups grew larger.
not sure how to stop that in a Hunter class chamber. abrasive wads ? ... oversize gas checks ?
didn't someone here mention that Tite-Group tends to do this ? i suppose it is compacted powder burnt into the barrel, my 22-250 problem was with mj Noslers .
you could try soaking in acetone ... or NASTY >> MEK ... since these melt your safety gloves, you would think it would soften the glazed lump ...
good luck, ken
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Been using Carbon Remover from a small engine shop.
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I'll ask the heretical question - does this fouling build up and degrade accuracy, or is it just a cosmetic issue? Most all my guns that I shoot exclusively with cast, I just about never have to clean, the bore is coated with bullet lube, and a little unburned powder, but no leading and I have not seen any real accuracy degradation (although I am just plinking, not shooting groups from the bench) in long strings of several hundred rounds. Which is to say they operate like overgrown .22 rimfires.
I know "Cleanliness is next to Godliness!" but maybe sometimes it ain't.
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If the fouling is to the point it's hard, a carbon remover won't work, though some are good for very mild fouling. JB Paste is the only thing I've found that will work on neglected carbon fouling. You may not want to remove every bit of the fouling. If it's clean down to bare metal, it could take a number of rounds to get the barrel shooting well again. I had this happen with a Cooper .270.
I've never seen serious carbon fouling in a rifle used exclusively with cast bullets, but maybe it can happen.
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Thanks for the ideas that have come in already. I will try them all.
I don't know that the hard carbon fouling in the neck of the chamber affects accuracy. But more importantly, I don't know that it doesn't. If it deposits there after several groups it seems reasonable to assume it will keep on depositing. Will it eventually build up enough to reduce the mouth of the case and pinch the bullet or push the neck to one side. I don't know that it's being deposited evenly or mostly on one side. Probably doesn't affect accuracy, but when I drive 600 miles to a match and back I don't want to find out i'm wrong when the shooting starts. I share lotech's aversion to cleaning things if I don't need to but this stuff looks pretty bad with a borescope. Maybe selling the bore scope isn't such a bad idea.
John
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This is most likely a combination of powder deterrents and primer residue. One is to run a patch of Ed's at the end of ever match and a clean patch before every match. (My choice.) Don't let it build up. Second is to change powder to a single based powder with less coatings. Third is to use JB, but that means cleaning the whole bore and re-seasoning it.
This is related to using European heavy coated Mil-Sup powders that leave black slime in the bore.
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John,
You might try using a surfactant like Kroil oil or some penetrating oil. Or, even Ed's Red. Wet down a patch with it and park it right over the spot on the end of a cleaning jag. Let it set overnight and soak the area of the fouling. The idea is to let the oil creep under the fouling and make it lose it's grip on the metal. Then hit it with a bronze brush and see if it will let loose. It might take lots of soakings but it might work. You could also use some OOOO steel wool to work it over after lots of soaking. Not too many things will dissolve it but if you can break the bond to the parent metal it should come out without damaging anything.
Tom
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If Kroil or the Carbon Remover soaking overnight does not do it, it is the bore brush and J&B, You might even refresh the soaking solution and let is go for another 24 hours. Breaking the bond to the barrel metal is the key. I run two Kroil soaked patches down the bore at the end of cleaning to preserve and condition the bore for the next match.
If you cannot break it free and must go after it mechanically, you'll need to reseason the barrel. J&B is my preference, but it will be severe. I coat a patch with J&B for five stokes, refresh the patch, over and over. After 25 stokes, new patch and another series of 25 stokes. After 50 stokes, clean with Ed's Red and examine. One Saturday afternoon and evening, I did seven repetitions on a 1903 Springfield barrel to bring it from five-inch groups to one and one-half inch groups.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Possible example, but if I'm right it's bad news.
The carbon build up on an AR-15 bolt is pretty much a given, and usually requires scraping to remove it. In fact, there are several companies that sell their particular version of a scraper. You didn't mention what cartridge and powder, or if a gas operated autoloader, but if anything similar to .223 it might be the same cause. Given the difference in GI 5.56 ammo and your cast loads, this seems unlikely to be the same.
If your carbon buildup is the same thing, mechanical removal may be the only solution.
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Sorry, but I'm not a fan of Ed's Red. It may work over time, but to clean a barrel between matches it just doesn't get the job done. I've had much better success with a combo of now unattainable GM Top Engine Cleaner and Kroil, 4 to 1.
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Years ago there was an article in Precision Shooting about how this fouling was taking the edge off of accuracty for .22 lr shooters. What they did to "fix" things was make a chamber/throat scraper to remove it and restore accuracy back to expected levels.
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I remember that article. I even tried to make a scraper. The first version didn't work and I didn't stick with it. May have to try again. Thanks for reminding me
John
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I wonder if this is the reason cases stick for the first 1/10" or so in some of my TC barrels. Only straight walled pistol calibers.
So what's the solution? A chamber reamer perhaps?
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I would try a different powder or lube in hopes of avoiding a recurring problem.
I considered the reamer as a solution, but I suspect you would need the original reamer used to cut your chamber. The reamer and barrel would also have to be perfectly, and rigidly, aligned as they are when cutting the chamber. I would be concerned about increasing the headspace.
The special tool mentioned in Precision Shooting may be the best approach. I have a very vague memory of the article and need to dig through my library.
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Thanks to all who have made suggestions. I appreciate your taking the time to write. I was hoping for a magic elixir that would disolve the hard stuff. Sometimes there is no free lunch.
John
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One of my routines after every target , after cleaning the barrel, is to use Never-Dull wool cleaner. I pull a dab of the wool out, use that on the case necks outside, then feather some of the same wool and wind it around a used 30 cal brush, and run it in the case neck. The outside gets pretty much clean, the inside of the neck gets cleaned.
If the neck is really dirty, it gets 0000 steel wool.
Some powder soot a case neck worse than others. Many are very popular, but I can;t stand the sooted necks. Not enough initial pressure to expand the case ans seal the chamber.
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John,
I remember someone discussing this problem some years ago, I think it was Bill McGraw but I'm not sure. Sorry I don't remember their cleaning method either but I know it wasn't easy to remove (no news to you). Possibly he used J-B Bore Compound on a tight patch and lots of scrubbing.
I looked up Bill McGraw's articles in the FS but my table of contents only goes back to 2012. He did mention in FS #216 that " ...when I discovered WW231 and AA#2, most of the previous fouling from flake powders (Red Dot, Green Dot and Unique) was eliminated between targets and 25-50 scoring shots plus plenty of sighters could be shot and my bores would be spotless of alloy fouling, lube or even powder fouling. I used appropriate powder charges for 1500 f.p.s. that would maintain headspace for the cartridge cases."
I believe he was shooting mostly 30-06, a bit larger than your .223, but I know you're shooting in the same velocity range and with a slightly faster pistol powder. Once you get it clean, this might help.
Added: Reading old FS articles someone mentioned Blue Wonder bore cleaner as good for getting carbon out. Your "shiny black spot" is likely carbon.
Glenn
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Hello John,
The only solvent, that I can think of, that might remove the carbon fouling is either Mercury Marine or Johnson- Evinrude power tune. This stuff was made to spray through the carburetors of 2 cycle boat motors while they were running to cut carbon fouling in the pistons and rings and etc. When I first started shooting.17 cal. Center-fire rifles years ago and they were still using cut rifled barrels I learned what fouling really is. I would take a small plastic bottle, but a bunch of patches in and spry the power tune in the bottle to soak the patches with a little extra solvent to keep them wet.. I found this to be the best solvent to remove carbon fouling that I ever used.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
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The other product to try is "Sea-Foam" from Walmart. It is an old product from the 1950's that was mixed with gas in 2 stroke outboards to cut carbon on pistons. Cost is $6.99 and one 16 ounce can will last a life time.
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I actually have some of this in the garage. Will try.
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That product is readily available in auto supply stores in Missouri. Common additive to fuel for older engines.
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