From Shooting Times, Feb 1973
by C. George Charles
Read every single word!!!!!!
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Having been there, done that, I warn anyone going to the really hot loads
that you are risking case head separations with the relatively weak 44-40 brass..
Some M92s will have enough excess head space...
Including a really nice SRC I had back then which had a New Factory Win.Barrel on it.
But it had escess headspace. First loading in new WW brass looked OK, but then I got
head separations on second loading.
My Modest load of 22 gr 4227 and a 200 gr HP FPGC bullet. Clocked about
factory load velocity at 1350fps.
I killed my second last deer with that load in the 1st year production M92 I have now..
One shot thru heart one kill at 65 yds . The buck went about 70yards, and collapsed dead
beltfed/arnie
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I do know Winchester advised not to reload their HV factory, loads but that was pre- WWII using semi-balloonhead brass. I am not surprised similar issues may be encountered with WW brass. Using such loads in the Marlin 1894CB, I do get case stretch and have to trim after several fired re-loads, however, I am using the stronger Starline brass. I was able to purchase a batch that was 1.300" and they have stretched as much as 1.310" before I sized back to 1.300". There is certainly some thinning going on in there but I have yet to cut one open to check. Fired HV loads from the Marlin will not chamber in my revolversor my Marlin 1889, so the chamber is a tad oversized at the base.
No issues yet with separations but I am keeping an eye on it. It did catch my attention when he mentions getting customs die made for such chambers.
Many report scatter-gun results with such loads but I get excellent results at 265 yards with the 94CB with such loads.
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SavvyJack,
I can relate also to the Modern production Marlin 1894 rifles.
A friend in our shooting group had a M1894, cal 44 Mag. We learned
to Not bother to pick up his spent brass as they were stretched and
would end up with head separations.
Oh, BTW, you can check your brass for incipient separation near the case head by "hooking" them
with a paper clip opened up and with a small bend/hook on the end.
beltfed/arnie
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I got past the case head problem with such loads in my Chiappa Cimmaron M92 44-40 by simply NSing the fired cases by running the necks only up into a 44 SPL/Magnum carbide sizer. I only loaded such heavy 44 Magnum level loads for the knowledge as they seize up the action of my old model Vaquero due to set back of the tapered case in the chambers.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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I have a 44 Mag resize die cut down to only resize the neck.
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https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...y-at-200-yards
Did this 200 yard target this morning with normal Winchester 73' loads.
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Savvyjack,
Very good at 200yds!!
beltfed/arnie
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Which one is the 44 Magnum case?
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Savvyjack thanks for posting the article, good read. The reference to Philip Sharpe's book reminded me to go look for my copy. I haven't looked at it in probably 40 years, kinda forgot it was on the shelf. Good reference for the 44-40 and quite a few other cartridges to use for reference with others like the older Lyman books and others.
Now I have to check my old Winchester 92 to see if it's nickel steel or not. Would have to keep loads well separated from loads for my Colt Lighting pump.
Intreasting thread, thanks.
John
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Nice!!!
I have a box loaded for my Marlin 94 but that's all now.....I prefer the 1,350fps Reloder 7 loads. Them other ones hurt!!
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Wow,
From back in the Day when Shooting Times was worth reading.
Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.
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Hello SavvyJack,
Thanks for the time and effort to post your Winchester 92 article. I enjoyed it. I have a 92 converted to .357 and one converted to .44 Mag.( re-barreled of course) Keep up the good work please.
Mashburn
David a. Cogburn
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I probably had that issue. They were printed on a "newsprint" type of paper, not glossy like Time or Life. One thing I remember was an article on a young lad (probably around my age at the time of 15) taking a perfectly good Kar 98k 33/40 mountain carbine and making a nice "hunting rifle" out of it. His use of a propane torch to "tiger stripe" the cut down stock was interesting. Hey they were just old WW2 rifles and had about $0 value. I took a nice NRA/DCM 30 Carbine and did a similar reboot. Who knew that they would someday be treasures and in high demand as unmolested and as issued.
Dave C
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Larry Gibson is pressure testing some medium velocity .44 Magnum loads which do not appreciably exceed about 20,000 psi. My intent is to use this data as a guide to assembling .44-40 loads for the Marlin 1894S, Winchester '92 and modern Pietta and Uberti clones. When the work is completed we will have test data using Bullseye, Unique, 2400 and 4227 powders.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed witch bullets weights will he be testing for the 44 Mag medium loads?
I isolated the 240gr 44-40 load results I tested here: Will be good to see how they compare,
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I bought a "crap load" of Winchester .430" diameter jacketed hollow point bullets with the cupped base, skived jacket and small HP cavity stabbed into the generous "glob" of exposed lead.
4227 data so far from Larry with this bullet has 18 grains for 19,200 psi and 19 grains for 20,300.psi.
I have loaded some at 18.5 grains to test in my S&W 544, Ruger Super Blackhawk with .44-40 cylinder and 1894S Marlin. If they shoot well I will try in my 1920 Colt New Service.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Nice, anxious to see the results!
Here are the only two 44-40 test results I have with a jacketed 240gr bullet.
Test#/grains/bullet weight/bullet/velocity/psi/est. cup/AOT/target#/notes
According to the 240gr load chart in the aforementioned article, there is room to spare, but the pressure could be much higher.
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I am not looking to push this as a rifle-only load not useable in the revolvers defeats the purpose. My reasoning is that my post-1920 .44-40 New Service revolvers are heat treated and that the modern Italian single-actions are all proofed to CIP and are designed to handle standard-pressure loads in .45 ACP, so I told Larry to use 20,000 psi as a loading limit in his .44 Magnum Contender test platform. The powder capacity of the .44-40 using Starline brass is about 6% greater than the .44 Magnum, which will lower pressure a little and give a cushion to fit nicely into that ".45 ACP" pressure envelope.
My expectation is that velocity of this load should be 850-880 fps from a 5 inch revolver, depending upon cylinder gap and probably 1050-1100 in the 20-inch carbine. The exposed lead should rivet a little at revolver velocity, maintaining penetration, while starting to expand. My hope is that at rifle velocity the ja. cket will peel back a bit and mushroom over .50 cal., without the "parachute" effect of dramatic expansion, which reduces penetration. Reliably penetrating over 30 inches of water jugs is expected. Probably closer to 40!
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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.jpg?width=20 "Dukem")
Yes, I understand. I was looking at documenting both high to low end tests that Larry may find.
Just to add...
20,000 psi will be a lower pressure reading than what the CUP result would indicate. 20,000 psi would be somewhere about 23,500 cup.
The SA revolver data from the 1930's show that 15,000 cup was used as a "max" pressure rather than today's 13,000 cup
Just to be clear on CIP,
For the 240gr JSP load for the 44-40 strong revolvers, it looks like a 21gr charge or less of 4227 will be needed (2400 was not tested by me.). Hopefully we can compare that result with Larry's and get a medium for the strong revolvers.
From the article, they did not hesitate to push 33,000 cup pressures for the 92.
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There is no direct correlation between psi and cup. I depend upon the CIP specs the Italian clones are proofed to and Larry's calibration tests with reference ammo.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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That is correct, we all know there is no correlation, but I have enough linier strain gauge test data compared to factory test data "to connect the dots" for reliable data results for both cup and psi up to at least 18000 cup (which is factory 44 WHV loads in cup, that gave me comparable psi results in the strain gauge test results).
I have no idea what CIP the Italian revolvers are tested for, but CIP pressure result numbers are not the same as psi or cup unless the loads or load manuals are tested for and published in CIP, not psi or cup. Like you said, there is no correlation between CUP and PSI, but to add...nor is there any correlation between CIP and PSI/CUP because the two (three) test methods are different.
SAMMI lists both CUP (13,000) max and PSI (11,000) max pressures for the 44-40, so we can indeed compare the two to a certain point. As long as we have known data, we can connect the dots for a reliable result...of which I have done.
What is known data?
With these four hints, I have enough concrete data to connect the dots and created a reliable chart only for the 44-40 between about 9,000psi and 16,000psi.
Other tests include original vs modern cases, and the different case designs that result in different velocities and pressures.
When you add it all up, this is what we see (simplified). What is not shown on the chart is that all test results are in PSI, and CUP results are only estimated per PSI results. That in and of itself is very close linier results. Closet I have ever seen anyone share, accumulated from actual test data results.
The most difficult part of certain tests was the reliability of the quality of the vintage powders used. I'd say it's pretty damn good! I have worked on this for nearly 15 years now...connecting dots as the data is collected.
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CIP minimum Proof pressure is 1375 BAR = 19,942 psi
Machine loading limit is 1100 BAR = 15,954 psi
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Awesome, I never did dig into the CIP other than when I started to mess with Quickload. I'll add those numbers to the list!
What I don't know, and I guess you all do, is that, is the 19,942 psi proof pressure for CIP test equipment results or psi test equipment results or cup test equipment results? Would the following be correct in leman's terms?
If you use CIP results, you can not compare those results to PSI or CUP. Hypothetically, if we use CIP 15,954 as cartridge max, 15,945 cip is much higher than 13,000cup. This means that 19,942 CIP would have to be somewhere between 23,000 and 30,000 cup.
Did I get lost?
44-40 cartridge used in Europe
Compare that to American dated 1917 by Winchester Cartridge Engineering.
44-40 cartridge used in USA
For the Winchester 73'
For the Winchester 92'
Is the CIP psi of 15,954 equal to 13,000 cup or 11,000psi? Is CIP a strain gauge test that is applied in a different location on the cartridge than the American PSI test?
I do not have a complete understanding of the terminology used.
Is the Uberti Revolver tested for these pressures or just the ammunition?
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CIP hasn't used cup since the 1980s. They were the first to go entirely to piezoelectric measurements based on the NATO standard used for military ammunition. Location of the transducer may vary from SAAMI practice, but location is shown on the applicable test barrel drawings.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I know you know what you are talking about, I am just trying to follow you with what I think I know !
That is correct, but their transducer is positioned in a different location on the cartridge than that of which the USA uses, thus the different PSI result readings using the same piezoelectric method. Thus the CIP transducer psi results should not be confused with our USA transducer psi results. They are not the same.
If Larry's test results are not in CIP psi, your pressure results will exceed safe pressures for the revolver.
Omitting CUP test equipment results...
Using only piezoelectric results...
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Bryan
C.I.P. uses a case mouth transducer system. That places the transducer slightly in front of the case mouth. The SAAMI transducer placement is generally over the center of the powder capacity area of the case. The C.I.P. method generally produces a bit higher psi measurement.
Also, specified "safe pressures" for the cartridge such as:
which do not always equate to what is a "safe pressure" for the firearm. Note the different tiers of load levels for the 44-40 dependent on firearm strength as listed in the rifle section of Lyman's CBHs. We also have different tier level of loads for handgun and rifle cartridges, with the 45 Colt and 45-70 cartridges being good examples, again based on firearm strength and not on "safe pressure" for the cartridge.
BTW, I place the strain gauge on my test firearms in the SAAMI specified location. Note also a transducer is, in fact, a strain gauge which in a "transducer" is used in a different fixture/application on the barrel.
Ed has stated; "My reasoning is that my post-1920 .44-40 New Service revolvers are heat treated and that the modern Italian single-actions are all proofed to CIP and are designed to handle standard-pressure loads in .45 ACP, so I told Larry to use 20,000 psi as a loading limit in his .44 Magnum Contender test platform." Thus, we are working up safe levels based on the strength of the revolvers he is using, not on the assumed "safe pressure" of the cartridge alone. Based on the strength of the revolvers Ed is using the pressures developed do not exceed the safe levels for those revolvers.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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Thanks Larry for your detailed answer.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ah, I think where I got sidetracked was the mention of the CIP Italian clone pressures.
Now I see where you are going to come up with loads for the New Service, using USA psi pressures and not EU (European) CIP pressures.
I was trying to figure out how you were going to use CIP numbers to make loads for a "CUP" or "PSI" handgun.
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Ed, you did mention that the Italian handguns were tested for 19,942 CIP. Do you have any idea what the New Service was tested for?
I have the Italian Uberti Buckhorn chambered for 44 Magnum and was wondering if this larger frame was one that may have been tested for 19,942 CIP or more.
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I am basing my loads on the design limits of the revolvers. The CIP or SAAMI measurements are only used as a frame of reference, not an absolute limit.
During WW1 early production M1917 revolvers in .45 ACP occasionally failed proof in testing with the Cal. .45 High Pressure Test M1 cartridge, which was about a 150% overload. Subsequent S&W and Colt .45 ACP revolvers were heat treated as was commercial production after about 1920. The Colt New Service was produced in great quantity in .45 ACP and later for the .38-44 High Velocity and .357 Magnum cartridges with no issues. The loads Larry is testing for me are well within design limits of that platform. Nor do I see any issues with the modern Italian SA clones.
If your Italian revolver was chambered in .44 Magnum it would be tested to the CIP standard for that cartridge. A .44-40 would be tested at the level appropriate for that cartridge. There is no metallurgical difference in the guns, as they offer spare cylinders in both calibers, just as they do for .45 Colt and .45 ACP.
I think that you are getting wrapped around the axle fixating upon chamber pressure numbers which are not absolute, but very widely based upon test conditions. Design limits are a constant.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I sure did, I lost focus on the New Service revolver, and the CIP addition confused me....took me down a long dark road...LOL
Anyhow,
A while back I did contact Uberti but they offered little information. This was back when I was asking about the 45 Colt and 45 ACP cylinders (pressures). I was told exactly what you said, same material...but to not use 45 ACP +P loads...for whatever that is worth.
This is what let me know that there would be no issues with the revolver frame, but only the thickness of the cylinder walls.
This is also why I use my custom 44-40 high pressure loads in the larger Uberti framed Cattleman revolver. Larger frame, larger cylinder, thicker cylinder walls...as thick or thicker than the 45 ACP walls and only ever so slightly thinner than the 44 Magnum walls...if I recall correctly without checking my notes.
Thus there is no reason why the Uberti Buckhorn 44-40 will not withstand the 200 to 240gr high pressure loads. This should be along the same lines as what the treated New Service revolver should withstand.
However, Larry....I sure was hoping your test results were going to somehow relate to CIP...I am indeed disappointed...LOL
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Speaking of measuring pressures at different locations, a few years back after I first got into measuring pressures I was presented with a "conundrum" of sorts. With transducers we get a pretty good time/pressure curve [many times referred to as a "trace"]. Using that trace some often deduce the peak pressure is reached at "X" distance down the barrel. others suggest, perhaps at that specified point is where the pressure is highest. Or is the pressure then that high in the entire length to point "X"? That be the conundrum......
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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Im'a gonna have to leave that one for the engineers!
It seems plausible if the velocity is increasing the entire length of the barrel? At what point does the pressure drop? If you shoot a plugged barrel, the pressure can't drop unless there is a opening? Or does a plugged barrel hinder the full pressure increase?
Nah, too much for me......... :-)
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Bryan, you would have loved the discussions at Ruger arguing whether the SAAMI 0.500" copper crusher used with solid case in which body wall anneal and case blanking pressure influenced values was better than the government method using a shorter 0.400 crusher and pre-drilled case withTeflon tape placed over the hole. SAAMI test method was faster in production because you didn't need to fixture individual rounds, drill, tape and orient the cases in the chamber to the piston hole
The government method is better for engineering study because the drilled case is not affected by variations in case wall thickness, body anneal and whether case was brass, steel or aluminum. When SAAMI went to piezoelectric in most calibers the 0.500 crusher was discontinued and only the "C" size government coppers are common today, also being used to measure striker indent. Then you can start the next argument whether the Kistler conformal transducer is more accurate than the BRL "minihat"...
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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LOL, you lost me at "case blanking pressure"...LOL!! 
I would loved to have been there and learned something though!!!
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Case "blanking" pressure is the radial chamber pressure required to shear a plug from the case wall to enable gas pressure to drive the piston and compress the copper crusher.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed Harris.
What is the purpose of the cupped base on the bullets pictured?
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Good question. Avoidance of powder compression at seating depth and ability to upset to fill over sized cylinder throats.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Good question. Avoidance of powder compression at seating depth and ability to upset to fill over sized cylinder throats.
Would a jacketed bullet upset at the pressures expected?
Cheers from New Zealand
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You betcha! Winchester does this in 110-grain .38 Special +P as well.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Here is the link to my Pressure Cross Reference chart for the 44-40 CUP/PSI/CIP pressure results. This is the basic "connect the dots" for CUP/PSI for the 44-40 from the low end of the spectrum to the high end of the spectrum. Test results are noted in PSI and cross referenced to CUP.
There is no magic formula to convert PSI and CUP, it can not be done. HOWEVER, since SAAMI has published both CUP and PSI max pressures for the 44-40, and we have other data for higher pressures in CUP...we can safely cross reference PSI and CUP for the 44-40 for low recoil, normal and high velocity loads, for conversational purposes. There really is no reason why this can not be done between PSI and CIP but I just never had a desire to try it without having any further CIP data to compare it with.
44-40 CUP/PSI/CIP Cross Reference Chart
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Today fired expansion test in water jugs of the Winchester 240-grain JHPs with 18.5 grains of IMR4227 from the Winchester lever action with 20-inch barrel. Blew first three gallon water jugs to smithereens, perforated next two and stopped in the sixth expanded to .65".
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Great range report!!!
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Ed, any chance you clocked them on the chrony? I noticed years ago when I did the gel tests that water did a bit more damage then the ballistics gel.
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If Ed did chronograph that load (?) for comparison it would run 1060 +/- out of my 8.4" Contender test barrel.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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I did not crony the jacketed loads. Same charge with 230-grain lead Accurate 43-230G is just a bit shy of 1300 fps from the carbine. Jacketed will be slower due to greater bore drag. Estimated guess is 1200-1250 fps. That agrees with trajectory. When factory open sights are set to obliterate a 1 inch target paster at 25 yards with 6:00 hold, POI is dead on at 100 yards to hit clay birds.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Great report, great looking 94'!
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FYI my new 240-grain wide flat-nosed bullet for .44-40 and .44 Magnum.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Speaking of 240gr lead bullets, I have a hundred of the 3D Manufacturing loaded up since 2012. I decided to use them for bears and coyotes this season.
This bear passed by my stand at 5:45 am this morning. Glad I waited a while...LOL
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Larry Gibson
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Wm Cook
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MP1886
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RicinYakima
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Lloyd Smale
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Ed Harris
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Aaron
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9.3X62AL
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Wilderness
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cbshtr
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