Heavy Loads For The 44-40 M92 Winchester

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  • Last Post 21 October 2023
Bryan Austin posted this 15 October 2020

From Shooting Times, Feb 1973

by C. George Charles

Read every single word!!!!!!

 

 

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beltfed posted this 16 October 2020

Having been there, done that, I warn anyone going to the really hot loads

that you are risking case head separations with the relatively weak 44-40 brass..

Some M92s will have enough excess head space...

Including a really nice SRC I had back then which had a New Factory Win.Barrel on it.

But it had escess headspace. First loading  in new WW brass looked OK, but then I got

head separations on second loading.

My Modest load of 22 gr 4227 and a 200 gr HP FPGC bullet. Clocked about

factory load velocity at 1350fps.

I killed my second last deer with that load in the 1st year production M92 I have now..

One shot thru heart  one kill at 65 yds . The buck went about 70yards, and collapsed dead

beltfed/arnie

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Bryan Austin posted this 16 October 2020

I do know Winchester advised not to reload their HV factory, loads but that was pre- WWII using semi-balloonhead brass. I am not surprised similar issues may be encountered with WW brass. Using such loads in the Marlin 1894CB, I do get case stretch and have to trim after several fired re-loads, however, I am using the stronger Starline brass. I was able to purchase a batch that was 1.300" and they have stretched as much as 1.310" before I sized back to 1.300". There is certainly some thinning going on in there but I have yet to cut one open to check. Fired HV loads from the Marlin will not chamber in my revolversor my Marlin 1889, so the chamber is a tad oversized at the base. 

No issues yet with separations but I am keeping an eye on it. It did catch my attention when he mentions getting customs die made for such chambers.

Many report scatter-gun results with such loads but I get excellent results at 265 yards with the 94CB with such loads.

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beltfed posted this 16 October 2020

SavvyJack,

I can relate also to the Modern production Marlin 1894 rifles.

A friend in our shooting group had a M1894, cal 44 Mag. We learned

to Not bother to pick up his spent brass as they were stretched and 

would end up with head separations.

Oh, BTW, you can check your brass for incipient separation near the case head by "hooking" them

with a paper clip opened up and with a small bend/hook on the end.

beltfed/arnie

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Larry Gibson posted this 16 October 2020

I got past the case head problem with such loads in my Chiappa Cimmaron M92 44-40 by simply NSing the fired cases by running the necks only up into a 44 SPL/Magnum carbide sizer.  I only loaded such heavy 44 Magnum level loads for the knowledge as they seize up the action of my old model Vaquero due to set back of the tapered case in the chambers.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Bryan Austin posted this 17 October 2020

I have a 44 Mag resize die cut down to only resize the neck.

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Bryan Austin posted this 17 October 2020

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...y-at-200-yards

Did this 200 yard target this morning with normal Winchester 73' loads.

 

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beltfed posted this 17 October 2020

Savvyjack,

Very good at 200yds!!

beltfed/arnie

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Bryan Austin posted this 18 October 2020

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Glaciers posted this 18 October 2020

Savvyjack thanks for posting the article, good read.  The reference to Philip Sharpe's book reminded me to go look for my copy.  I haven't looked at it in probably 40 years, kinda forgot it was on the shelf.  Good reference for the 44-40 and quite a few other cartridges to use for reference with others like the older Lyman books and others.

Now I have to check my old Winchester 92 to see if it's nickel steel or not.  Would have to keep loads well separated from loads for my Colt Lighting pump.

Intreasting thread, thanks.

John

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Bryan Austin posted this 18 October 2020

Nice!!!

I have a box loaded for my Marlin 94 but that's all now.....I prefer the 1,350fps Reloder 7 loads. Them other ones hurt!!

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BigMan54 posted this 18 October 2020

Wow, 

From back in the Day when Shooting Times was worth reading.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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mashburn posted this 23 October 2020

Hello SavvyJack,

Thanks for the time and effort to post your Winchester 92 article. I enjoyed it. I have a 92 converted to .357 and one converted to .44 Mag.( re-barreled of course) Keep up the good work please.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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Wineman posted this 01 October 2023

I probably had that issue. They were printed on a "newsprint" type of paper, not glossy like Time or Life. One thing I remember was an article on a young lad (probably around my age at the time of 15) taking a perfectly good Kar 98k 33/40 mountain carbine and making a nice "hunting rifle" out of it. His use of a propane torch to "tiger stripe" the cut down stock was interesting. Hey they were just old WW2 rifles and had about $0 value. I took a nice NRA/DCM 30 Carbine and did a similar reboot. Who knew that they would someday be treasures and in high demand as unmolested and as issued.

Dave C

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Ed Harris posted this 04 October 2023

Larry Gibson is pressure testing some medium velocity .44 Magnum loads which do not appreciably exceed about 20,000 psi. My intent is to use this data as a guide to assembling .44-40 loads for the Marlin 1894S, Winchester '92 and modern Pietta and Uberti clones. When the work is completed we will have test data using Bullseye, Unique, 2400 and 4227 powders.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bryan Austin posted this 06 October 2023

Ed witch bullets weights will he be testing for the 44 Mag medium loads?

I isolated the 240gr 44-40 load results I tested here: Will be good to see how they compare,

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Ed Harris posted this 06 October 2023

I bought a "crap load" of Winchester .430" diameter jacketed hollow point bullets with the cupped base, skived jacket and small HP cavity stabbed into the generous "glob" of exposed lead.

4227 data so far from Larry with this bullet has 18 grains for 19,200 psi and 19 grains for 20,300.psi.

I have loaded some at 18.5 grains to test in my S&W 544, Ruger Super Blackhawk with .44-40 cylinder and 1894S Marlin. If they shoot well I will try in my 1920 Colt New Service.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bryan Austin posted this 06 October 2023

Nice, anxious to see the results!

Here are the only two 44-40 test results I have with a jacketed 240gr bullet.

Test#/grains/bullet weight/bullet/velocity/psi/est. cup/AOT/target#/notes

  • 67/25/Reloder 7/240 DGHP/Speer 4455/1,350/15,248/18,024/36/223/Case Capasity
  • 70/22/IMR4227/240 DCHP/Speer/1,400/20,547/24,287/50/229/Typical 4" Group @ 100 yards

According to the 240gr load chart in the aforementioned article, there is room to spare, but the pressure could be much higher.

 

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Ed Harris posted this 06 October 2023

I am not looking to push this as a rifle-only load not useable in the revolvers defeats the purpose. My reasoning is that my post-1920 .44-40 New Service revolvers are heat treated and that the modern Italian single-actions are all proofed to CIP and are designed to handle standard-pressure loads in .45 ACP, so I told Larry to use 20,000 psi as a loading limit in his .44 Magnum Contender test platform. The powder capacity of the .44-40 using Starline brass is about 6% greater than the .44 Magnum, which will lower pressure a little and give a cushion to fit nicely into that ".45 ACP" pressure envelope.

My expectation is that velocity of this load should be 850-880 fps from a 5 inch revolver, depending upon cylinder gap and probably 1050-1100 in the 20-inch carbine.  The exposed lead should rivet a little at revolver velocity, maintaining penetration, while starting to expand.  My hope is that at rifle velocity the ja. cket will peel back a bit and mushroom over .50 cal., without the "parachute" effect of dramatic expansion, which reduces penetration. Reliably penetrating over 30 inches of water jugs is expected. Probably closer to 40!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bryan Austin posted this 06 October 2023

Yes, I understand. I was looking at documenting both high to low end tests that Larry may find.

Just to add...

20,000 psi will be a lower pressure reading than what the CUP result would indicate. 20,000 psi would be somewhere about 23,500 cup.

The SA revolver data from the 1930's show that 15,000 cup was used as a "max" pressure rather than today's 13,000 cup

  • 13,000 cup (SAAMI max in "cup") is equal to 11,000 psi (also SAAMI MAX in "psi".)
  • 15,000 cup (1930's revolver loads) would be about 12,690 psi
  • 16,000 cup (1930's rifle loads) would be about 13,536 psi
  • 18,000 cup (44 WHV Max Pressure) would be about 15,228 psi
  • 23,500 cup would be about 19,881 psi

Just to be clear on CIP, 

  • 44-40 MAX SAAMI CUP = 13,000 CUP (PSI)
  • 44-40 MAX SAAMI PSI = 11,000 PSI (PSI)
  • 44-40 MAX CIP PSI = 15,954 CIP (PSI)  (none of my "psi"/"cup" results have any relation to "CIP" results)

    In other words, 13,000cup should be equal to 15,954 CIP.....BUT the testing method is different and can not be used to CONFIRM CUP/PSI American related results for higher pressure comparisons unless a correlation can be found with another higher pressure CIP tested document.

For the 240gr JSP load for the 44-40 strong revolvers, it looks like a 21gr charge or less of 4227 will be needed (2400 was not tested by me.). Hopefully we can compare that result with Larry's and get a medium for the strong revolvers.

  • The 25gr Reloader 7 charge gives original 200gr Winchester 44 WHV 18,000 cup pressures.
  • The 22gr 4227 load gives 24,287 cup pressure results
  • The 28gr article load should give excessive high pressure results. (33,000 cup range)

From the article, they did not hesitate to push 33,000 cup pressures for the 92.

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Ed Harris posted this 06 October 2023

There is no direct correlation between psi and cup. I depend upon the CIP specs the Italian clones are proofed to and Larry's calibration tests with reference ammo.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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