Foaming alloy

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  • Last Post 14 May 2017
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BigMan54 posted this 24 March 2017

I tried to mix some 20-1 alloy last Monday. Put 100lbs of 98lead-2%tin I bought on ebay into my big cast iron pot. Laid  3 lbs of tin on top. Waited for the melt. Looked normal. EBayer said the alloy was clean.  When I fluxed it the tin floated to top in a “foamy” mass. No dirt or crude in the pot, no crud floated to the top, but the TIN DID.  Would not mix in. I know the TIN WAS GOOD. I bought it from Art Green in LA,CA about 10yrs back. He never sold me anything wrong. Meet him with my Dad about 1965, started buying from him myself in '75.  Never heard a bad word about his products.

I tried fluxing with candlewax, beeswax, NRA 50/50. Turned the pot as high as 800 degrees. Down to 650 degrees.  Nothing helped to blend the tin into the lead alloy. I cast a dozen bullets to check hardness. 48hrs later, they came out on my SAECO LEAD HARDNESS TESTER as a 1-2 , brinell 3-4, almost as pure Lead as we can get. 

The Lady ebayer said she  had sold 100's of lbs of this “stuff” without a complaint. I know throwing this all in together without checking a small batch was REALLY DUMB. 

PLEASE, PLEASE does anybody have any idea how to fix this. I need help with my DUMB.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

did-a-stupid

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 March 2017

good one .... but first i would consider if you really are ok .  

>>     did you really have 100 lbs of lead ?  and was it 2 per cent tin in the first place ??    maybe it was 130 lbs . of pure lead and your tin added then only gave about 2 per cent tin .  which in 48 hours might still be B3 hardness .    then the foam on top is just the normal dross crud and dirt .   hmmm .. do you have 3 pounds of foamy stuff ?

( g ) just a hopeful thought .  other than that i leave it to better chemists/metal-urologists than i ...

ken

 

 

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R. Dupraz posted this 24 March 2017

BigMan54

Your post sounds exactly like what happened to me several years ago when I tried to melt down some unknown ingots that a friend gave me. While inventorying an estate, Chuck found a small old wooded ammo crate mostly filled with lead ingots in this guys shop. And knowing that I shoot cast bullets, Chuck gave the crate to me.

My lead pot is a Waage 20 pounder and some time later I thought that I would melt some of this lead by filling the pot with these ingots.. Mistake #l ! After the lead melted, a thick foamy slush formed on the surface. and kept forming, even though I took it off. After fluxing several times, the slush kept reappearing until finally  it didn't anymore. But then there were odd colors on the surface of the melt. And no amount of fluxing would remove them.

So by this time, the light finally came on and I decided that I'd best get rid of this stuff, It took me two days to finally decontaminate my Wagge.  

After doing some searching, I think that these ingots are from old lead acid batteries and is contaminated with cadmium.

  

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onondaga posted this 24 March 2017

BigMan54

Turning up the pot to 800 is meaningless without a thermometer . And,  if you used a thermometer it was wrong. Use the simple and basic method from Lee pot instructions. Heat the metal till it is hot enough to cause a 1 inch rolled newspaper stick on FIRE instantly when touching the alloy melt. Any cooler is insufficient to flux or alloy the metal in your pot. Don't even bother stirring it till you get it that hot, it is a waste of time and it won't work.

This is just basic instructions that you did wrong.

It is not too late and you don't have garbage. Heat it to the heat checking point I described regardless of the dial setting on your pot .If if won't start the paper stick on fire instantly, your metal is DEFINITELY NOT hot enough to alloy or flux. You need higher heat than your last try. If you can't get it that hot, your pot is broken, your method is wrong or you simply have insufficient heat for your needs.. It is also likely that you were impatient and did not wait long enough for your pot to heat the metal to the paper stick  flaming point. That can take hours with a large quantity even with your pot set at maximum.

Gary (retired casting analyst, Williams Gold Refinery)

 

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RicinYakima posted this 25 March 2017

Gary has the key, I think. Especially if you have a Lee pot. I have three and they will cycle between 650 and 910 degrees when set on “7” on the scale, but not repeatable from one cycle to another. I have been using a PID control pot for over 10 years now, nothing beats it. There is nothing wrong with you, it is an equipment problem.

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David Reiss posted this 25 March 2017

Many, many years ago I received about 300 lbs of scrap lead alloy from a old service station. It had all kinds of trash in it and was basically real dirty stuff. Since it was a mixture of wheel weights and other unknown stuff, I separated it all out and melted the unknown stuff separately, about 50 lbs. It did the same thing and it took longer to flux & mix. I was using a propane cooker and a large cast iron pot. At the time I did not have a thermometer, but I am sure it was “cooking". I added some kitty litter to cover the top and it ended up ok. In hindsight the kitty litter was probably not necessary, but at the time I thought it might help. 

One thing about eBay is that if you are not happy with what you buy, you are covered and it's easy to get your money back. However in this instance, I don't think you will need to go that route.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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BigMan54 posted this 25 March 2017

Guys, I am NOT using AN ELECTRIC POT MADE BY Lee or any one else. I'm using a big cast iron pot on a big PROPANE BURNER. I am using a LYMAN thermometer for temperature control. The post was clean and dry before I started. The Tin was placed on top of the “alloy” and the propane was lit. I suspended the thermometer above the pot so that the post did not touch the bottom or sides of the pot. As soon as the lead went to full melt I checked the temp. It was 680degrees. I dropped in a 3/4” ball of beeswax & lit it off as I started to stir the pot with a 1lb ladle. FOAM!FOAM!FOAM!

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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BigMan54 posted this 25 March 2017

Blasted smartphone. THAT'S. POT ,Not post.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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onondaga posted this 25 March 2017

BigMan54 

You just gave me another positive indication your heat is insufficient. When you put the wax into the pot, it should have instantly burst to flame if your metal was hot enough to alloy or to  flux. You didn't have the metal in the pot hot enough to do either successfully.

Also from a metallurgy standpoint, when the potful isn't hot enough to instantly swallow the tin when you dropped it in,   a strange thing happens. The tin acts as an insulator to the top of the metal melt surface and it's surface tension is effected to retard or even prevent alloying.  This also slows temperature climb. Your propane heat source may well be insufficient for your pot size/mass and metal amount in the pot.

Again, you are just missing basics and will learn from these errors or your metal won't flux or alloy..

 

Roll up some 1” newspaper wands and ignore your thermometer. Your thermometer is either broken, very wrong or you used it incorrectly. This happens with flame heated pots due to insufficient protection of the thermometer from the flame source.The thermometer ideally should be on a mounted clip that places the thermometer straight down into the middle of the melt at the recommended depth  the maker specifies, Alternately, you can use a long tongs and only dip it straight down into the center of the melt to get a reading then remove it.

Gary

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BigMan54 posted this 25 March 2017

I've ordered a new thermometer., And when I remelt this crap I'm going to use the smaller 10” pot and put the “foamiest' ingots on the bottom to start. I'll turn the propane all the way up and keep it there until the thermometer needle starts to bend at 850degrees. 

I will try holding the thermometer with my grilling tongs. I've been using a “four-legged” wire contraption made from wire coat hangers that holds the thermometer suspended in the center of the pot without touching the bottom

But GARY I don't understand about the rolled up newspaper. 

Thx to all for your input.  Even after 50+ years you can still learn when you try something new. I've never tried to make my own 20-1 alloy before. Just used the lead or lead alloy as it came. Only blending WW & LINO ingots to make an approximate LYMAN #2. 

I got an old IDEAL #358395 HB mold last year and I wanted to try to cast some hollow base wadcutters.  I remember the marathon casting sessions in the garage when I was a kid. Brothers around the big pot just inside the big open garage door. My Dad at the bench using a small electric bottom-pour pot. Casting with 2 HB molds. one mold and it's bullets on the right, the other mold and it's bullets on the left. Sprues in a bucket between his feet. He had a COLT SHOOTING MASTER? , could shoot a one hole group at 25yds with those bullets all day long.  Just wanted to grasp at a moment of the past.

Jes, there I go getting maudlin again.

 

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 25 March 2017

What Gary is trying to tell you is that the rolled-up newspaper will ignite when the alloy is up to proper temperature. A way to test without a thermometer. 

I've ordered a new thermometer., And when I remelt this crap I'm going to use the smaller 10” pot and put the “foamiest' ingots on the bottom to start. I'll turn the propane all the way up and keep it there until the thermometer needle starts to bend at 850degrees. 

I will try holding the thermometer with my grilling tongs. I've been using a “four-legged” wire contraption made from wire coat hangers that holds the thermometer suspended in the center of the pot without touching the bottom

But GARY I don't understand about the rolled up newspaper. 

Thx to all for your input.  Even after 50+ years you can still learn when you try something new. I've never tried to make my own 20-1 alloy before. Just used the lead or lead alloy as it came. Only blending WW & LINO ingots to make an approximate LYMAN #2. 

I got an old IDEAL #358395 HB mold last year and I wanted to try to cast some hollow base wadcutters.  I remember the marathon casting sessions in the garage when I was a kid. Brothers around the big pot just inside the big open garage door. My Dad at the bench using a small electric bottom-pour pot. Casting with 2 HB molds. one mold and it's bullets on the right, the other mold and it's bullets on the left. Sprues in a bucket between his feet. He had a COLT SHOOTING MASTER? , could shoot a one hole group at 25yds with those bullets all day long.  Just wanted to grasp at a moment of the past.

Jes, there I go getting maudlin again.

 

 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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onondaga posted this 25 March 2017

BigMan54

The rolled up newspaper wand is an old and very reliable method to check if your metal in the pot is hot enough to flux or alloy. Just turning up the pot all the way has an inherent problem to casters that care not to lose Tin in the pot to rapid oxidation.  Over 650 Degrees F. the Tin rapidly oxidizes into dust. After fluxing and alloying turn the pot down to under 650 to preserve your Tin in the alloy. A good thermometer helps well for that.

Gary

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BigMan54 posted this 26 March 2017

Gary,

I carefully reread all the posts.

I now UNDERSTAND  the rolled newspaper trick.

Am looking forward to trying this again when the new thermometer arrives.

Thanks, 

Walks

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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BigMan54 posted this 30 March 2017

Well I got the new thermometer.  Fired up the ' cast iron pot and tossed in about 50 1lb ingots from the previous debacle.  Turned the flame up as high as it would go. 

Waited for a full melt, took only 20 min.  5 min more to reach 800 degrees on the new thermometer.  I tossed in the Flux and it “FUMPPED” up in flames in less than 2 seconds. Started stirring with the 1lb ladle until the flames died off. Skimmed off the dross. Doesn't seem as if the tin had any problem joining with the lead this time. Fluxed again,  nothing more than a few specs.  Melted “old/new” ingots back & forth, fluxing as needed. Watched the temp closely.   After an hour & a half in 80 degree heat over an 800 degrees pot I now have 107 1lb ingots that I hope will test out to 20/1 alloy.

Checked temp with both old and new thermometers. Both registered within 10 degrees of each other.

In the future I'll remember to blend alloys at 800 degrees.  The newspaper trick works too.

Thanks to Gary and every one else for your help. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 30 March 2017

BigMan54,

It's nice to have people to talked to that have already been down that road. Since it happened to me about 35 years ago, I don't know that I had given it any thought since. But at the moment I read your post, the memory came back just like it happened yesterday. I am glad we could help.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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BigMan54 posted this 30 March 2017

David,

Thank you.

It's nice to have some one to talk to about these things.  In just the past few years I have lost most of my shooting/reloading buddies. They have all either retired & moved away. Or passed on. I can't drive too well and the only two ranges left in LA County are 60+ miles away thru the worst traffic in the world.   I have no one to talk reloading/casting with.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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David Reiss posted this 30 March 2017

Well you found a good place, not to much BS here as on other forums. Lots of real experience and good people, quite a few with lots more knowledge than I have.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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BigMan54 posted this 14 May 2017

Had a thought since I talked to an old friend back east last week.

If I had put the TIN in the BOTTOM of the pot 1st & then added the LEAD on TOP, there would have been no problem.

TIN melts at about 440 degrees, & LEAD melts at about 620 or so degrees, then the TIN would have melted 1st and the LEAD would have melted down into it from the top.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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