Can Powder Coating Improve Accuracy

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Wm Cook posted this 3 weeks ago

I owe Tony this so here goes:

Larry almost a waste pc'ing those 38 wadcutters because they are such low velocity it's guaranteed pc will work.....unless you just don't like lubing sizing them.  The highvelocity rifle rounds is where the show is at. 

I have no opinion on powder coating so I am absolutely neutral on the topic. 

I think they call people like me independent.  Not pro or con kind of independent, just indifferent at this time. 

The cast shooting I do is exclusive to long guns and accuracy in the 800 to 1900fps range.  Lube serves me well and I can get match accuracy without PC'ing.  Now if there was hard evidence that I could shrink my group size with powder coating I'd give it a try.  But to be honest most of the praise I've heard comes from shooting venues that are not in my wheelhouse.

In short, I haven't seen a lot of data about improved accuracy with PC over lube. 

But I'm open minded and always looking to improve my accuracy.  Your opinion is welcomed.  Bill Cook.

 

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JeffinNZ posted this 3 weeks ago

From the experiments I have done to date my observation is accuracy is no better or worse.  Where I found PC to be advantageous is in the .310 Cadet with the heel bullet where sometimes leading was an issue (long story).

Cheers from New Zealand

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shuz44 posted this 3 weeks ago

Bill, Ive been powder coating for about 3 years now and believe it's forte is in handguns. I shoot .44 mags in the 1000fps arena and they work very well in eliminating even minor leading. As yet, I have NOT found any powder coated load in my .250 Savage or my .308 Winchester that is as accurate as my sized and lubricated boolits. I haven't given up, but as they say, "The jury is still out! ".

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Wm Cook posted this 3 weeks ago

Shuz, right or wrong that’s the impression PC seems to give. I was hoping to have someone on line come back with something that would show positive accuracy results with powder coating. Bill C.

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Spindrift posted this 3 weeks ago

Which has the best accuracy potential, lubed or coated bullets?

There is no simple answer to this. When we coat a bullet, we add about 0,002in of diameter everywhere. Thus, we change fit. We’re not shooting «the same bullet» anymore. For this reason, a simple comparative test using the same mould will not give us the answer, we really need «big data».

 

If you add coat to a bullet that has given really excellent accuracy with lube only, results will probably be worse. Because you’re changing the bullet geometry that was so well-fitting in the first place. On the other hand, adding coat to a bullet that didn’t work out so well with lube, might show improved accuracy.

 

I can’t give you a well documented answer (don’t think anyone can, at this moment), but I do have an opinion based on quite a lot of experimentaion with different bullets and cartridges:

 

Coated and lubed bullets have the same accuracy potential. But the conditions under which accuracy can be achieved, differ widely.

I find myself shooting more and more coated bullets. After the initial learning curve, I find the coating process convenient. I appreciate the abscence of sticky stuff. And I can shoot bullets without gas checks in the 1800- 2000fps (sometimes more) window.

 

Here is a thread I posted, using a PB bullet in a hunting rifle. Please note, I’m not a competitive BR shooter- just a hunter/tinkerer using basic tools. When I find a consistent 1MOA load with cast, I’m filled with joy and stop tinkering with the load.

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John Alexander posted this 3 weeks ago

By far the most extensive work I have seen or heard of on PC coating and accuracy was by Dan Lynch (the Mountain Mold company before he retired) He ran extensive tests using a variety of products and methods of application.  His testing  was with several calibers in very heavy switch barrel benchrest rifle.  He was mostly interested in accuracy of PCed cast bullets at jacketed bullet velocities.  He fired many dozens of ten shot groups and analyzed them by the mean radius method. He achieved excellent accurecy (almost good enough to win in UNR in a regional CBA match).  His work, in my opinion, was the the best set of experimental work on cast bullets ever -- bar none.  And it was all published right here on this forum in living color. I believe it can be dug out of the archives.

The other notable accuracy work that I know of is by the gentleman who goes by the handle of 4 in1 on this  forum -- or used to. A couple of years ago he fired a perfect, and very rare, 400 score in a registered CBA match with PC coated bullets setting off a panic about whether PC should be allowed in CBA competition. He has fired several excellent scores since then. The velocities submitted on his tech data sheets are typical of CB velocities for uncoated bullets.  I asked him to write an article for the TFS or post his methods on the forum.  But he has unfortunately declined to share what he has learned.

John

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Wm Cook posted this 3 weeks ago

There is no simple answer to this. When we coat a bullet, we add about 0,002in of diameter everywhere. Thus, we change fit. We’re not shooting «the same bullet» anymore. For this reason, a simple comparative test using the same mould will not give us the answer, we really need «big data».

Coated and lubed bullets have the same accuracy potential. But the conditions under which accuracy can be achieved, differ widely.

Spindrift thanks for laying out your experience with powder coating.  It sounds like you've reached your own realistic expectations for coated bullets. The point you made about bullet to bore fit was sobering.  If anyone does get into cast accuracy with powder coated bullets it sounds like they would be starting out at square one.  The first stop would be custom molds to get a bullet that would fit their throat, bore. 

Here are the lubes, 10 shot aggergates, velocities and bullet types from last years Nationals.  The second attachment is a subset of that which is just those shooting >2000 fps.  Note; no one was shooting the super velocities that Larry worked with when he did his lube evaluations.  

For my own edification I'll dig up the work done by Dan Lynch just because I'm a geek.  4 and 1's work would be a high value.  Too bad how some hard earned knowledge can slip away.   But we all have day to day life to live with.  To be honest I had thought there would be more of a passionate defense for powder coating than what I see here.  Maybe its a sensitive subject.  Sort of like talking up the Yankee's team here Cardinal country.

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Buttersdad posted this 3 weeks ago

All I can say is that I started out with lubed cast bullets and good accuracy. Several years ago I went to powder coating and now get better accuracy than before.

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Wm Cook posted this 3 weeks ago

Any chance you could share the details. Thanks, Bill C.

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porthos posted this 2 weeks ago

NO

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Wm Cook posted this 2 weeks ago

Thanks anyway porthos.  Bill C.

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MP1886 posted this 2 weeks ago

I hate to say this, but going to aways, the guy that know more then you all and has achieved very good accuracy even at very hiigh jacketed velocities is geargnasher.  Yeah he's a member there, but y'all run him off.  He taught me some things and they work. 

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John Alexander posted this 2 weeks ago

I don't think many people get "run off" this forum unless they are of a very delicate nature.  Unfortunately, some people take it as disrespect if anybody has a different opinion.  But the major purpose of a forum like this should be to learn new ideas, perspectives, etc. That requires that members be able to express their opinions freely and present their evidence to support then, as long as the posts are civil and nobody get personal. It is a loss for all of us when a member takes their ball and goes home.

John

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MP1886 posted this 2 weeks ago

I don't think many people get "run off" this forum unless they are of a very delicate nature.  Unfortunately, some people take it as disrespect if anybody has a different opinion.  But the major purpose of a forum like this should be to learn new ideas, perspectives, etc. That requires that members be able to express their opinions freely and present their evidence to support then, as long as the posts are civil and nobody get personal. It is a loss for all of us when a member takes their ball and goes home.

John

 

I believe you are correct on this John. 

Tony

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 2 weeks ago

cold fusion ... years ago a couple scientists made cold fusion work .. converting a glass of water into endless cheap energy ...

turned out they got really lucky with that glass of water and couldn't do it again ... ever ... and nobody else either ... ever ... 

but they had written down their simple " rules "  ... for success .

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other people tried those rules and reported different results.

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what if a good shooter lucked into a great rifle with a lucky great bullet and lucky great load and got great results ... then made some rules >>>>

" load only after midnight on Saturday mornings... must stand not sit ...at your loading bench and  wear a baseball hat from John Deere ...... loading block must be of teakwood and bullets loaded straight from the box while wearing pink latex gloves.  .. " 

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seeing great results * reported * many others tried these rules and found no correlation to good results  ... meanwhile the original shooter keeps * reporting * great results and is justifiably disappointed by wasting time with unappreciative shooters who cannot duplicate his results ... 

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meanwhile everybody loses because we never found out what went into making that great rifle, that great bullet, and praising the original shooter for his time and efforts .... and for those of us that love to see good targets, the fun of looking at witnessed targets made by following those rules ...

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when i started shooting the tough ARA 22rf matches ( with a 10-22 and plinker ammo bot at a gas station on the road to the match  !! ) ... i was amazed that the top shooters came by and asked ME what i was using and my methods !! ...  as i acquired better equipment and through obsession turned in finally some better targets this free discussion of " how to shoot better targets " from those who had the knowledge and experience continued. 

the top shooters were the most free with information ... makes sense, as they had more useful information to share.  not strangely, the top shooters were also the most curious ...  

and when i didn't take their advice, and dropped a string of shots ... they didn't pick up their equipment and go home embarrassed from having to shoot with idiots ... ... they just chuckled at my goof and offered to help me correct ... again ... my mistakes, often with a little story of how they had made the same mistake and found a better way ....

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just some thoughts .. one thought is how wonderful is the human ear ... not so good for teaching, but dang good for learning ...

ken

 

 

 

 

 

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Wm Cook posted this 2 weeks ago

That made my day Ken. Thanks, Bill.

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