BP cartridge match- new?

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GWarden posted this 10 December 2016

How, and is there enough interest to have a postal match for cast with Black Powder. I think many underestimate the accuracy with cast and BP loads. Have bench 100 and 200 yd. , allow any lead bullet, breech seat or fixed. Could allow any power scope. There are some that have spent the time, and such loads will shoot right along with smokeless loads. Would be great to share the info with other shooters, and see just how good such BP loads can be developed. I would be willing to help with such a postal match in any way I could. You all have a good day.

Bob   Iowa

If you want to see this type of match come to be, go to the Polls category and vote. Most of you are just saying you like this, but you have to vote!

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delmarskid posted this 10 December 2016

I would like that. Last time it was brought up I wanted to but the no duplex loads irritated me.

 

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.22-10-45 posted this 10 December 2016

I like that idea..especially the 100yd. bench.  I only have access to 100yd. range..and I am sure I am not alone with this “handicap"  I know alot of guys look down their nose at such “short range” for BPCR, but if everyone is shooting at the same distances, it's all relavent..accuracy can be compared.  I hope to be able to finally do some paper-patch shooting with my Ballard .40-63 Everlasting this coming year, and this would sure be a welcome challange!  Hope it flies. 

 

 

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Tom Acheson posted this 10 December 2016

Check out match the BPCR #22 in the CBA Postal match outline elsewhere on this site. 200-yards, prone or off cross sticks. PB bullets only. Some gun rules apply.

 

Tom

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David Reiss posted this 10 December 2016

I am trying to figure out how to start a poll on this. I think this is a good idea and even better you are willing to help.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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rhbrink posted this 10 December 2016

Tom

Am aware of the match#22, it is a good match for BP, but seems to be exclusive, eliminating a lot of shooters. A bench match any sights any loads to get the most out of BP loads. How does one go about getting a new match started? Can we get this going through the forum, see how many shooters we have this coming season and evaluate from there? 

Bob

The best thing to do is keep talking about it try to get some interest, in my area Pioneer Gun Club I have been trying for some to time to generate some interest in a single shot match but not much happening so far. Several guys were interested in a black powder match but that was about as far as it went. I would for sure open up the matches to allow most any single shot rifle firing a original black powder cartridge rollers, break open, Martini's, Rugers, Borchardt's. I think that the NRA BPCR matches are way too restrictive on the action types and rule out too many potential shooters.  I would not be in favor of duplex loads and I'm sure that you would hear a lot of complaints about scopes and iron sights so you would need two classes. I would be available to help score or help in any way.

 

Richard brinkman

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 December 2016

OK guys...this is the place!

The Timed Fire Handgun and the 200-yard BPCR Postal matches orginated here (forum) and we are on the verge of getting a Bunny Gun Postal launched in the CBA Postal program.

Two things to remember..

   Someone has to step firward and be the ” Match Director"

   We'll never come up with rules, etc. that EVERYONE likes.

But it can be done. 

 

Tom

 

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David Reiss posted this 11 December 2016

Go to the “General Polls” category to vote on your interest in this type of match.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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rhbrink posted this 11 December 2016

I looked up the TQ 3/5 I think that would be a tough target for old eyes and iron sights at 100 yards? I would suggest at 100 yards the MR-31 C which is the military target and most if not all CBA clubs would have those. The TQ-4 at 200 is OK. Could make it easy and just use the same targets that the military shooters use across the board?

RB

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 December 2016

Agree that 100-yards is the max distance that potential participants have access to.

To open up the gun requirements would it fly to say any single shot with exposed hammer, plain base bullet, BP, iron and scoped categories, from the bench with your favorite front and rear rest? Limit the scope power to 6x like the CBA Military game?

I'm guessing that matches with BP only are just trying to keep things “traditional". Have no idea if pretend BP or duplex loads are equal to BP in the accuracy dept. If there is a consensus that all three propellants are somewhat equal then let all of them play?

 

Tom

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.22-10-45 posted this 11 December 2016

Eliminating hammerless rifles would  shut out such historical 19th century target /sporting rifles such as the Sharps Borchardt and the Peabody “What Cheer” rifles..both of which saw use at Creedmoor..I can understand trying to stop an “arms race"  using modern hammerless designs..but I think having rules against this sort of thing could be set in place.

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 December 2016

I confess I know little about those mentioned hammerless rifles. What do the rest of you potential participants think?

 

Tom

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David Reiss posted this 11 December 2016

Remember to vote in the poll section.

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 December 2016

i have never shot bp, and so don't yet have a dog in this race... but remember that

ruger 1 y 3 do have a hammer ... it is just ( mostly ) enclosed ...

...hmmm... is the hr handi-rifle included ?

i think this match needs a dictator ( g ) , and when the goal is determined, the rules can be revealed .

i like the idea of these special matches .

ken

 

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GWarden posted this 12 December 2016

I was looking at this match as one to get the potential out of BP cartridge, not just from using traditional exposed hammer, or 6X limit on scope power. Both these are limiting shooters. I am for any rifle being used and not limiting scope power, that right there would eliminate me from being able to use what I have. Hopefully it is to get the most out of the potential of the BP cartridge. Just my two cents worth. I have seen some of the smallest groups shot with IS at 200yds over other shooters using scopes, still trying to figure that out. Have a great day. Have a separate match for IS, and one for scope. I have seen how complicated it can be in getting a new match started. 

Bob

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GWarden posted this 12 December 2016

Forget what I mentioned earlier on targets. Need to use our existing targets that are used in other CBA matches. So how about for scope 100yd the CBA score/group target   IS the TQ-4. For 200yd scope the MR-31, IS MR-52.   For 200yds  10 shots on record target. For 100yd. scope score- 2 shots on each bull, group 5 shot on each bull, 4 bulls shot.  IS 100yd,  5 shots each on two bulls.

 

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GWarden posted this 12 December 2016

While we are on the subject, everyone willing to do 4 months, starting in May, all targets in by Sept. or just a one time match between May and Aug.?  I see there is more to getting this going than what I realized. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 December 2016

i like the idea that the goal will be to see how good black powder cartridge shooting can be...with the benefit of improving our methods ... ( and, i suspect, including improving even smokeless techniques ) .

...and since the sense of this is toward research for better shooting .... i would hope that full information on loads, equipment, methods, and comments from the shooters could be reported in full ...

as opposed to the valuable current postal matches, aimed more toward winning and necessarily limited by publishing space, where only the top few shooters are listed ...

thank you mr. warden for your initiative in proposing this shoot, and keep me in mind if i can help in any way ...

i might even dig out that can of 3fg from 30 years ago ...  is there such a thing as a safe reduced black powder load for my r1 in 300 win mag ( bottle necks ) ??...  see, a chance for enlightenment already ( g ) ...

ken

 

 

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GWarden posted this 12 December 2016

You got it Ken, hopefully we can all share what makes our BP rifles shoot, and get the most accuracy out of them. Sure would want everyone to share their equip and methods with everyone. I met you a few years ago when I drove down to you place to get a big box of “Precision Shooting” magazines you were giving away. Take care, and hope you can get involved with shooting in the matches.Have a good day.

Bob

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rhbrink posted this 12 December 2016

The next hard part after you get the rules finalized and everybody accept them is to get the same people to out and shoot the match!!!! And turn in the targets on time!!!!!

Richard

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Tom Acheson posted this 12 December 2016

Bob,

There are two potential routes here.

Remember, the first year is a trial year to measure the interest in our crowd by how many people actually shoot.

Keep in mind that all Postals are based on the honor system. Someone (the Match Director?) works up an allowable gun/load definition, shooting distance and time, target to be used, categories (scope or iron sights), score or group or both, etc. That gets published in a forum post. And yes, the Match Director can shoot too. …..Honor system!

 

Informal approach

The targets are bought by the individual shooter from National Target, Midway, etc. He shoots them before the closing date. He posts his results before a specific date, hopefully with a photo of the target but at least the gun, load, score/group size details, on the forum. No awards, just self-satisfaction. Re-entry targets are OK. A re-entry is shooting a second or more target in the same category using the same gun. The first target is the one for “record” the others are for fun and information gathering/sharing.

 

More Organized Approach

The Match Director buys a pile of targets. The shooter orders his targets from the MD. (The CBA Postal program gets $5 per entry but that has been static for a long time and the fees may be raised someday.) The MD has to guess how many entries he’ll have and then divide that into his cost for the targets and outgoing postage/printing if he wants to break even and not self-fund the events. This determines the fees involved. There is a Tech Data Sheet included with each target. The shooter sends his fired target(s) and executed Tech Data Sheet(s) to the MD before the due date. The MD scores the targets and publishes the results on the Forum. It probably works to make an Excel sheet with the names, scores, gun, load details, etc. and then make a pdf of it and post it on the Forum.

 I may have missed something so let me know.

 

 

Tom

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GWarden posted this 12 December 2016

Thanks Tom. Guess I favor the informal approach if we want get it going for the coming shooting season. I hope we are all on the same page as getting this started would be used as a great way to get input from shooters on what is giving them the best accuracy with their techniques. I am wiling to take on the match director for such a shoot. I will work up info as soon as I can get things put together. I have seen in the past that not everyone is going to be happy, but I would like to see us include as many shooters as possible with both scope/IS and 100 and 200 yd. matches. Hopefully shooters will start giving their input. May we all give ideas that will include as many as possible, not what our favorite match would be.

bob

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Tom Acheson posted this 12 December 2016

Bob,

As you start to assemble the outline it might help to look at the Posatl rules elsewhere on this website and see how the key items are addressed

  • Remove

Thanks forcstepping forward!

 

Tom

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rhbrink posted this 13 December 2016

Every black powder match that I have ever shot was for score and most of the old time matches were for score or string measure which is very interesting I think. I like the string measure but it would be harder for the score keepers to do and is time consuming, something to think about though! Group measure would be the easiest by far and would relate more to the modern side of competition. Something else that I would do would be keep the targets the same for both IS and Scope that would just make it easier to keep and make up target packets instead of having four different targets there would be just two and give a truer meaning between the IS and scope people most of the time the Scope scores would just be higher?

Just a few of my thoughts and suggestions.

Richard

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GWarden posted this 13 December 2016

Here are the matches we will go for. Shooter can chose how many they want to shoot. Start the first match May,June, July, Aug. If this has enough interest this summer, we can see which matches shooters prefer and then propose that these be accepted as regular matches.

All Targets Benchrest

Benchrest BP cartridge match targets Scope/ score: CBA Score target 100yd. used, 2 shots on each bull for total of 10 shots in 40min.( reason for the 40 minutes. Some shooters breech seat and use one case, so they are scraping the inside of the cartridge between shots. Also many wipe the bore between shots, as much as 2 wet patches and one dry. Have to knock out old primer and seat new one, drop powder charge, seat compression wad and compress load- this all takes time.)

Scope/ group: CBA Group Targets  100yd. 4 record targets, 5 shots on each bull, total 20 shots in 1 hr. 

Iron Sight/ group: TQ-4 Target 100yd. 4 record targets, 5 shots on each bull, total 20 shots in 1 hr.

Iron Sight/ score:TQ-4 Target 100yd. 2 record targets, 5 shots on each bull, total 10 shots in 40 min.

200 yd Bench

Iron Sight/ score: MR-52 target, 10 shots, total time 40 min.

Scope/score:MR-52 target, 10 shots, total time 40 min.

Used info from Match#13(single shot)  and #19(Military 200yd)

Again, we are going for accuracy, not a traditional match equipment wise. Propose for scopes, any power. Any single shot rifle, use fixed or breech seat. No weight limit on rifle. Plain base bullets. Straight black powder, or substitutes. Paper patched bullets may be used. Fired from bench with sand bag or conventional pedestal rest.  Each shooter will supply their own targets and score/measure them- honor system. Report loading method used for getting best accuracy, rifle, scope specs. listed, and conditions( temp, humidity, wind) I have found temp/humidity sure makes a difference on how my rifle shoots.

I'm sure I have left out things, so need your input, it is our match; it's the shooters that will make this go, and show just how accurate BP is capable of. I have seen some phenomenal BP cartridge scores/groups shot at matches at 100&200 yds. Great chance for us to help each other with what works and improve shooting with BP.

Bob

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R. Dupraz posted this 13 December 2016

No duplex loads, Black/smokeless. Right?

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GWarden posted this 13 December 2016

Correct, straight BP

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tlkeizer posted this 14 December 2016

Greetings,

Starting in May, in by September, seems good to me, allows me to get back from the lower 48 in May for a wedding end of May and temps to get out of the cellar.  I would be shooting an original Springfield Trapdoor Model 1873 in 45-70, and would like it limited to BP or equivalent (such as Pyrodex), but that limitation would probably keep out a lot of shooters that like to shoot modern smokeless so  what the heck, let's shoot.

TK

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GWarden posted this 17 December 2016

So, as of today we have 13 that have signed the poll that are interested in the match. I posted three days ago about types of matches and rules for the matches. Didn't get any comments negative, SO. Can we agree on the rules and monthly shoots planned and go ahead with things? I will check with Tom on how to handle the results for each shoot. We will give it a go and hopefully these matches will gain interest as we go along. Now, waiting for Spring and nice weather to arrive. Wishing you all a most blessed Christmas.

Bob

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GWarden posted this 31 March 2017

Don't forget, the new match will start in May. Post your results and equipment by the end of each month that we shoot. Have a great shooting season.

Bob

Iowa

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.22-10-45 posted this 31 March 2017

If one is limited to only a 100yd. range...can you still enter 1/2 match?

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GWarden posted this 31 March 2017

If one is limited to only a 100yd. range...can you still enter 1/2 match?

You do not have to shoot all the different matches. You can just shoot the 100 or the 200 yd. A shooter can shoot just the group or the score if they want. We are just wanting to see where the greatest interest is. A person can shoot with just IS or Scope, we just want to get as many participants as possible  and to show the accuracy that is available with BP cartridge. Have a good day.

Bob

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.22-10-45 posted this 31 March 2017

Sounds good!

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4060may posted this 26 April 2017

now that i'm ready

how do you score?..touch the line (break with bullet dia) or half in like muzzleloader targets?

do we post the pictures of the targets or just score and group agg.?

 

 

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beltfed posted this 27 April 2017

I am interested in jumping into a BP postal match such as described.

Probably iron and scope.

beltfed/arnie

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beltfed posted this 28 April 2017

40-65 100yds group of 5 shots

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beltfed posted this 28 April 2017

Here is a 100yds group of 5  starter from my 40-65 HiWall

 for the postal competition

beltfed/arnie

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rmrix posted this 28 April 2017

Hmmm....

That group will scare off the other competitors. 

Looking good!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 April 2017

oh my ... this is getting good ...

ken

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beltfed posted this 28 April 2017

That group was indeed shot with straight black.

Of course, I cannot say that I can shoot that well a group every time.....

but I am working on consistency. and hope the wind/mirage

or a bad break/bad bullet doesn't screw me up.

beltfed/arnie

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beltfed posted this 29 April 2017

How does a person obtain CBA score and group targets an TQ-4 tgts?

beltfed/arnie

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GWarden posted this 02 May 2017

May is here, time to get the targets shot for our first months BP cartridge postal matches. Will start a new post "May BP cartridge postal results". This is where will will post our matches and the results, don't forget to include your equipment list. If you can post a pic of rifle and targets that will be great. Results need to be posted by the end of the month, have a great shoot this month.

Bob

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John Alexander posted this 02 May 2017

beltfed asked:

"How does a person obtain CBA score and group targets an TQ-4 tgts?

beltfed/arnieArnie,"

 

Arnie,

Targets are for sale by the CBA's director of services.  See store on CBA website or inside of back cover of a Fouling Shot.

John

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David Reiss posted this 02 May 2017

Arnie,

Robert Eggleston is no longer the services director. I have taken that responsibility over. You can either on the website store, where I just added packs of 25, or call me direct.

281-935-7610

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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GWarden posted this 02 May 2017

David

Thanks for taking on the job of handling targets for CBA. The packs of 25 is a great deal.

Bob

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GWarden posted this 02 May 2017

Good question presented, do we score by the hole breaking the line, or need to have over half of the hole cutting the line? In ASSRA we have to have over half the hole cutting the line. Someone make the command decision.

Bob

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tlkeizer posted this 02 May 2017

Greetings,

Beltfed, is your group iron sights or scope?  Nice group, part of the reason for this match is to see how well BP cartridges can shoot, obviously pretty darned well in your case.  Beat the stuffins out of what I can do with iron sights on an original trapdoor, we'll see how close I can come to your group.

TK

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beltfed posted this 03 May 2017

TK,

That particular group was shot from my orig rebuilt HiWall 40-65, with a 15X Lyman STS

that I install for load development checking. Otherwise it has Irons for BPTR match shooting.

In future, I will specify IS or AS.

Arnie

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tlkeizer posted this 03 May 2017

Greetings,

Here are results of my first go using a Springfield Model 1873 Trapdoor 45-70.

Bullet:  420 grain flat nose, not sized

Powder:  55 grains Goex FFG

Primer:  CCI 250

Case:  WW

Lube:  SPG Pan Lubed 

Score:  First set target 1  1xX, 1x10, 1x7, 1x6, 1x5 = 38 1-X

                          target 2  2x9,1x8, 2x7                    = 40 0-X

 

                           Total    78 1-X

 

Shot a second set  Target 1     1xX, 1x9, 1x8, 1x7, 1-5 = 39 1-X

                               Target 2     1xX, 1x9, 2x8, 1x7        = 42 2-X

                           Total 81 2-X

Comment:  Shot a different bullet than I used for the groundhog, I think I need to use the Lee 405 grain Hollow Base bullet for better accuracy.  As that seems to shoot better groups, and a heavier powder charge on this bullet seems to work better, I am wondering if obturation (or however you write the word for expansion due to slumping or pushing out the skirt) is giving a slightly better group.  Anyway, here is my first set of targets, using targets 1 and 2 for the "record".  If I get a group worth photographing, I will do so and add them, otherwise two of my targets were "heart of caribou", one was "heart of Moose", one I need to get out the snowshoes.

TK

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GWarden posted this 03 May 2017

tlkeizer

First one for the month of many, thanks for your post. Would you go over to the BP cartridge , under shooting and there is a new "May:Black Powder Cartridge Postal results." and put your results there. Also everyone needs to include the match being shot, 100 or 200 yd and IS or Scope. We have observers of the new match, but are not shooting it, this way they will know what we are shooting. Hopefully we can spark and interest for more shooters. Thanks again.

Bob

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tlkeizer posted this 01 August 2017

Greetings,

My last sending disappeared into the etherals, so am sending this again.  Sorry the match did not do better.  Of course, I am part of the problem as I did not get my June targets shot being traveling to the lower 48.  I shot July, and getting ready to past found the match is discontinued.  Bummer.  If we try this again, I would like to have another go at it, and probably will not be traveling as much as this year.  Just for grins and giggles as the results are OBE'd, I shot 4x6 and 1x10X, then 6,8,9 10,10X.  I did manage to get loads ready and sights verified for Moose and caribou subsistence seasons opening tomorrow, out to 100 yards I SHOULD be good to go,  I will post results when I have something positive.

Thank you, Bob, for your work with the match.

TK

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4060may posted this 01 August 2017

I would be in again if the number was up, seemed just tom and i were sending in targets.....seemed like it went the way of the bunny match after I bought a pack of targets

Still have a bunch of targets

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 August 2017

i would be in this time as i have been lately plinking with my r3 45-70 ... and now that rifle deer is legal for iowa i need to find some loud hunting loads ... why not black powder ?? ... oh, i got a bunch of rabbit and groundhog targets left too .... just sayin ...

ken

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Tom Acheson posted this 01 August 2017

This semi-formal Postal event does have merit. We just need people to get out of their loading room and go out and shoot!

Jim Scearcy and Ken Campbell had a real good turnout for the Groundhog thing. The key there was almost unlimited gun and equipment requirements. Conversely, the Bunny Gun thing probably had too many twists and turns in it with different things going on almost each month.

I probably try to do too many CBA Postals every summer and need to back off on a few for next year. My favorite gun to shoot is the BPCR rifle. So I saw this forum postal as another shooting opportunity. When that petered out I discovered a local Scheutzen event in June where 200-yards is one of the events. That was fun and educational. Being used to 10-points possible per shot in the CBA World, the Scheutzen thing has 25-points per shot AND the center of the bullet must be inside the scoring ring to get the higher value. It will happen again in mid-August and I plan to go.

The targets for this forum postal are not hard to acquire and the event should be of interest to many of us who like to post our thoughts here, as PARTICIPANTS.  A bit late for 2017 but let’s make a re-concerted effort to make this happen in May, June, July and August in 2018. Target return due dates, actually the date to post your results and photos, etc., would be the first of each month. Then we would see a 4-month agg. recognized also. The options for either 100 or 200-yards and iron or scoped sights make sense but if we wanted to thin out the gun rules, make it any sight for all entries.

If we need someone to receive mailed targets for scoring (not mail out unfired targets), I could do that but only if we can get (10) or more committed shooters.

FWIW

Tom

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