AMERICAN RIFLEMAN GUN TESTS

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joeb33050 posted this 30 November 2018

 

 

AMERICAN RIFLEMAN GUN TESTS

 

It appears that the National Rifle Association, NRA, is reporting gun test information that is not true.

 

The NRA magazine, “American Rifleman”, (AR), publishes the results of gun tests. These tests include tests for group size, of sets of five, 5-shot groups. (Group Size is the distance between centers of the two furthest-apart target holes in a group.)

The published group size measures, for each set, include: smallest group size, largest group size, and average group size.

 

Analysis

The Coefficient of Variation, CV, is the standard deviation / the average.

CV varies with the number of shots per group.

The EXPECTED CV average of group size of sets of five, 5-shot groups is .27. (“A Group Size Model&rdquo

The standard deviation = Range / d sub 2, and d sub 2 for n = 5, 5-shot groups, is 2.326.

 

(On the Extreme Individuals and the Range of Samples Taken from a Normal Population

L. H. C. Tippett

Biometrika

Vol. 17, No. 3/4 (Dec., 1925), pp. 364-387

d sub 2 = the number of standard deviations that the Range of a sample, from a normal distribution, encompasses; and varies with sample size.)

The AR largest group size / AR smallest group size = the AR Range.

The (AR Range / 2.326) / the AR average group size, = the AR CV = .18.

 

For 237 AR tests ending with the 12/2018 AR, the average AR CV is .18.

 

Sample CV values greater than the expected value are explainable; but sample average values less than the expected value are not explainable, by me or anyone to whom the question has been posed.

 

Similar analyses have been performed on data from the Cast Bullet Association 2015, 2016, 2017 Nationals, from the International Benchrest Shooters 2017 Nationals, from Larry Landerdasper and from my records. In all cases the sample average CV is greater than the expected CV.

 

My conclusion is that the NRA AR test results are not true, that at least one of the three reported results is false in a large fraction of the tests.

 

All supporting data is available on request to [email protected].

 

 

 

 

 

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Wheel Weights posted this 27 April 2020

JoeB - you get an A+ for "cut-n-paste" other than that your post is a mystery.

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joeb33050 posted this 26 April 2020

Thanks for the lesson, Larry. Of course, truth doesn't matter.

How are you fixed for Lysol?

Got a syringe?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Being an old fart and NRA life member since 1960 I'm quite used to see the NRA bashing that is on every gun related website.

I enjoy the Rifleman and am not caught up in picking the fly poop out of the pepper as it relates to statistics on group size. (Although I do have an MBA in finance that involved hours of stats.)

For all who bash the NRA, I suggest you move to ANY first world country and see how well gun owners there are doing w/o a strong gun rights organization.

If YOU don't like how the NRA is run, whining on an obscure cast bullet blog will change nothing. Get involved in your state NRA projects, build a cadre and run for a directorship. Absent that you can stand on your front porch and scream. It will be equally effective.

On a lighter note: loosen your nuts and keep your tool lubed.

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Wheel Weights posted this 26 April 2020

Being an old fart and NRA life member since 1960 I'm quite used to see the NRA bashing that is on every gun related website.

I enjoy the Rifleman and am not caught up in picking the fly poop out of the pepper as it relates to statistics on group size. (Although I do have an MBA in finance that involved hours of stats.)

For all who bash the NRA, I suggest you move to ANY first world country and see how well gun owners there are doing w/o a strong gun rights organization.

If YOU don't like how the NRA is run, whining on an obscure cast bullet blog will change nothing. Get involved in your state NRA projects, build a cadre and run for a directorship. Absent that you can stand on your front porch and scream. It will be equally effective.

On a lighter note: loosen your nuts and keep your tool lubed.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 05 March 2020

.. about 1990 i bot a ruger 77h ... cutest little thing, the review hype was terrific, but me and some other 77h shooters formed a " Ruger 77H Victims " group and had postal shoot-offs ... 4 moa was about average.

( ok, after a lot of trickery we got them down to <1.5 moa ) 

anyway, a friend recently, after a lot of reading-up in the gun magazines, bot  a Ruger American in 17 Hornady ... i warned him, reminding him of my mis-adventures with those cute 77h ... but he went ahead...

out of the box, it wouldn't eject and the trigger was 4 pounds ... 1 hour cured both, and so we benched it ... my first 6 shots ( at 30 yards, starling range ) were one hole 0.17 wide ...  so i shut up and he was real happy.

moral:  ignore magazine reports, and buy it if it talks to you ...  

ken

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Ed in North Texas posted this 05 March 2020

When I bother to read any gun test I'm looking for ergonomic information, calibers available, etc.  For any new rifle I've bought in the past decade (very few) it needs to be able to shoot minute of hog.  Most firearms I've bought over the past few decades have been "new to me" and about as old as I (70s) to much older (mid to late 19th century).  When I shot any competition the AR could tell me about the M1, M-1917 and K-98 but accuracy statistics about issue rifles for the John C or Military Rifle match  - not so much.  And my older eyes and a couple of surgeries have knocked me out of competition.

I have been a member of the NRA seemingly forever (DDE was President) and I remain a member for the same reason I support SAF and JPFO - Second Amendment activity.  As for NRA leadership, I'm partial to Save the Second to work on that problem.  Best thing we can do about Wayne, et al, is vote (if a voting member).  Few voting members actually bother to vote, which is how we got into this mess.  I spent a little time on-line checking on which BoD candidates would work to fix the problems (savethe2A.org, Ammoland and NoLawyersonlygunsandmoney were my sources)

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RicinYakima posted this 02 March 2020

Sorry, I guess the proper term would have been pitch.

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harleyrock posted this 02 March 2020

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RicinYakimaCBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 1 weeks ago

 

With you jimmyDee. Unburned hot exhaust and torque on the props at maximum RPM.

 

The props on that engine turned 1100 RPM all the time, whether at idle or full throttle.  The turbine ran at varying RPMs up to 33,000.

 

 

Lifetime NRA since 1956, NRA Benefactor, USN Member, CBA Member

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joeb33050 posted this 25 February 2020

All I know Joe is that I got the photo off the official US Navy web site and that is how it was identified, if you have problems with that, take it up with SecNav.

Talk about thread drift...

 It ain't about thread drift, Ed; it's about truth. NRA truth, my truth, your truth; truth suffers when untruth becomes expected. 

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Squid Boy posted this 25 February 2020

I seem to have thrown an unintentional wrench into this thread. Sorry about that. Squid

"Squid Pro Quo"

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Ed Harris posted this 25 February 2020

All I know Joe is that I got the photo off the official US Navy web site and that is how it was identified, if you have problems with that, take it up with SecNav.

Talk about thread drift...

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 February 2020

... i don't often watch tv ... but when i do, i often watch the Smithsonian channel  ... season four episode three is on the C2 .   they also have a series on " Air Warriors " ...

************

i once landed a j3 piper cub and walked away ... but i am not sure about a carrier landing in a tricky wind  ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 25 February 2020

Wikipedia info is ten years old.

And yet:

 

 

A/C is a C2B.

 

Here is a better photo taken on the Kitty Hawk during Summer Pulse 2004, about 30 years after my time... 

16 years ago the  C2B flew, and 6 years later WIKIPEDIA wasn't aware? 

 

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Ed Harris posted this 25 February 2020

Wikipedia info is ten years old.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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joeb33050 posted this 25 February 2020

 

I cannot find any reference to a "B" variant. Wikipedia:

The 36 C-2A(R)s underwent a critical Service Life Extension Program (SLEP). The C-2A(R)'s lifespan was 10,000 hours, or 15,000 carrier landings; plans require the C-2A to perform its mission supporting battle group operational readiness through 2015. The lower landing limit was approaching for most airframes, and the SLEP will increase their projected life to 15,000 hours or 36,000 landings. Once complete, the SLEP will allow the 36 aircraft to operate until 2027. The SLEP includes structural improvements to the center wing, an eight-bladed NP2000 propeller, navigational upgrades including the addition of GPS and the dual CAINS II Navigation System, the addition of crash-survivable flight incident recorders, and a Ground Proximity Warning System. The first upgraded C-2A(R) left NAVAIR Depot North Island on 12 September 2005, after sitting on the ground for three and a half years while the SLEP was developed and installed. All aircraft will receive SLEP by 2015.[5]

 

  A VRC-40 C-2A after SLEP on USS Carl Vinson, July 2009

 

In November 2008, the company also obtained a $37M contract for the maintenance, logistics and aviation administration services over five years for the C-2A fleet assigned to VX-20 test and evaluation squadron at Patuxent River. Northrop Grumman worked on an upgraded C-2 version, and offered to modernize the fleet with components common to the E-2D Hawkeye.[6]

 

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Ed Harris posted this 25 February 2020

B model has upgrades in GPS satellite nav, encrypted comms and electronics. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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joeb33050 posted this 24 February 2020

That plane looks a lot like a C2 A Greyhound bringing the mail. Never saw a C2 B variant. 

 

Interesting photo Ed but wheels down a little early don't you think? Luckily I never worried much about Ceiling & Viz with the radar on but in 30 footers and spin drift it doesn't work that well. What is that aircraft by the way? Squid Boy

 

A/C is a C2B.

Here is a better photo taken on the Kitty Hawk during Summer Pulse 2004, about 30 years after my time... 

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John Alexander posted this 24 February 2020

When I was nine I felt exactly the same way. Lots of WWII planes overhead with distinctive shapes. Great for looking, not so great for some in the planes.

John

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beagle6 posted this 24 February 2020

I like the pictures of aeroplanes better than the long columns of numbers.

beagle

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Squid Boy posted this 24 February 2020

Well guys you are right, I never gave a thought that it might be taking off from a carrier. Thanks, Squid 

"Squid Pro Quo"

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RicinYakima posted this 24 February 2020

With you jimmyDee. Unburned hot exhaust and torque on the props at maximum RPM.

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